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	<title>Comments on: Does Dubai Matter?  Ask Ireland</title>
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	<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/28/does-dubai-matter-ask-ireland/</link>
	<description>What happened to the global economy and what we can do about it</description>
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		<title>By: tippygolden</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/28/does-dubai-matter-ask-ireland/#comment-35226</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tippygolden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 18:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5605#comment-35226</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I found a link for City Center that is part of Dubai World&#039;s troubled portfolio. Real estate speculation. A digital Mirage? Talk about economic disparities in our world.

http://www.citycenter.com/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found a link for City Center that is part of Dubai World&#8217;s troubled portfolio. Real estate speculation. A digital Mirage? Talk about economic disparities in our world.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.citycenter.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.citycenter.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/28/does-dubai-matter-ask-ireland/#comment-35053</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 05:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Thanks very insightful! Hope you could write an article soon on how you think Dubai can restructure its economy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks very insightful! Hope you could write an article soon on how you think Dubai can restructure its economy.</p>
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		<title>By: tippygolden</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/28/does-dubai-matter-ask-ireland/#comment-34963</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tippygolden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 06:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5605#comment-34963</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve recently learned MGM Mirage and Dubai World are partners in an $8.5 billion project in Las Vegas called CityCenter.

According to Bloomberg: &quot;The 67-acre site contains 18.5 million square feet of built space ... The largest privately funded construction project in US history ... a complex, interconnected web of hotels, condominiums, pools, spas, high-end restaurants and retail outlets, a casino, convention space, &#039;pocket parks,&#039; public artwork and pedestrian walkways.&quot;

According to Times Online: &quot;no fewer than five &#039;starchitects&#039; were involved in the design process: Norman Foster, Cesar Pelli, Daniel Libeskind, Rafael Viñoly and Helmut Jahn.&quot; 

This is an amazing piece of land development. I take it this might be part of the CRE bubble some are worried will burst. Perhaps a symbol of why everything went so wrong in the financial system.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve recently learned MGM Mirage and Dubai World are partners in an $8.5 billion project in Las Vegas called CityCenter.</p>
<p>According to Bloomberg: &#8220;The 67-acre site contains 18.5 million square feet of built space &#8230; The largest privately funded construction project in US history &#8230; a complex, interconnected web of hotels, condominiums, pools, spas, high-end restaurants and retail outlets, a casino, convention space, &#8216;pocket parks,&#8217; public artwork and pedestrian walkways.&#8221;</p>
<p>According to Times Online: &#8220;no fewer than five &#8216;starchitects&#8217; were involved in the design process: Norman Foster, Cesar Pelli, Daniel Libeskind, Rafael Viñoly and Helmut Jahn.&#8221; </p>
<p>This is an amazing piece of land development. I take it this might be part of the CRE bubble some are worried will burst. Perhaps a symbol of why everything went so wrong in the financial system.</p>
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		<title>By: William Peterson</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/28/does-dubai-matter-ask-ireland/#comment-34859</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[William Peterson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:10:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5605#comment-34859</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The situation where some investors believed that Dubai World debt was guaranteed by the Government, and only discovered that their beliefs were incorrect when DW effectively defaulted, is not new. I believe that a rather similar event occurred, though on a much smaller scale, when a small UK publically owned utility (the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board) went bankrupt in the mid 1970&#039;s. 
However one point which I have not seen is that if Dubai World does not have a sovereign guarantee it is presumably not entitled to sovereign immunity in bankruptcy. Hence creditors outside Dubai can presumably attempt to recover their loans by attaching assets (such as the ports purchased when DW took over P &amp; O) which are outside Dubai. This could make any bankruptcy very messy indeed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The situation where some investors believed that Dubai World debt was guaranteed by the Government, and only discovered that their beliefs were incorrect when DW effectively defaulted, is not new. I believe that a rather similar event occurred, though on a much smaller scale, when a small UK publically owned utility (the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board) went bankrupt in the mid 1970&#8242;s.<br />
However one point which I have not seen is that if Dubai World does not have a sovereign guarantee it is presumably not entitled to sovereign immunity in bankruptcy. Hence creditors outside Dubai can presumably attempt to recover their loans by attaching assets (such as the ports purchased when DW took over P &amp; O) which are outside Dubai. This could make any bankruptcy very messy indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Browne</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/28/does-dubai-matter-ask-ireland/#comment-34854</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Browne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 20:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5605#comment-34854</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One way it seems for the Bank of England to deal with CDS&#039;s is to pump 62 billion &quot;secret&quot; sterling loans into banks like Royal Bank of Scotland and HBOS which they did at the height of the credit crunch. While, surprise, surprise being highly critical of Ireland for implementing its bank guarantee scheme. 

How can anyone trust UK authorities after they indulged in this kind of &quot;secret&quot; dangerous market manipulation. Is this &quot;secret loans&quot; business legal? If it is how can anyone calculate CDS&#039;s? Are secret interventions o.k. if they are for the &quot;right&quot; reasons because that is what is implied.

It definitely stops investors from making fully informed decisions. Surely,i t opens up government manipulators for legal actions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One way it seems for the Bank of England to deal with CDS&#8217;s is to pump 62 billion &#8220;secret&#8221; sterling loans into banks like Royal Bank of Scotland and HBOS which they did at the height of the credit crunch. While, surprise, surprise being highly critical of Ireland for implementing its bank guarantee scheme. </p>
<p>How can anyone trust UK authorities after they indulged in this kind of &#8220;secret&#8221; dangerous market manipulation. Is this &#8220;secret loans&#8221; business legal? If it is how can anyone calculate CDS&#8217;s? Are secret interventions o.k. if they are for the &#8220;right&#8221; reasons because that is what is implied.</p>
<p>It definitely stops investors from making fully informed decisions. Surely,i t opens up government manipulators for legal actions.</p>
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		<title>By: Kay4</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/28/does-dubai-matter-ask-ireland/#comment-34848</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kay4]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 18:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5605#comment-34848</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Creditors always take a hit, this is no surprise all CB are not as stable or sound as they should be.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Creditors always take a hit, this is no surprise all CB are not as stable or sound as they should be.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas G</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/28/does-dubai-matter-ask-ireland/#comment-34815</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Douglas G]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 01:47:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5605#comment-34815</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Compliments are due to all for the very intelligent(in the main) comments on this subject.  It is refreshing to read enlightened commentary without vitriol.  Thanks]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Compliments are due to all for the very intelligent(in the main) comments on this subject.  It is refreshing to read enlightened commentary without vitriol.  Thanks</p>
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		<title>By: edward</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/28/does-dubai-matter-ask-ireland/#comment-34811</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[edward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:27:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5605#comment-34811</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Don&#039;t forget Citi. They haven&#039;t seen a bum loan they didn&#039;t like. Since they are running on the taxpayer tab, I guess that means we are picking up the costs of this one, too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t forget Citi. They haven&#8217;t seen a bum loan they didn&#8217;t like. Since they are running on the taxpayer tab, I guess that means we are picking up the costs of this one, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Dominic J</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/28/does-dubai-matter-ask-ireland/#comment-34797</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dominic J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 19:37:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5605#comment-34797</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d like that - if someone paid me $4500 to take a $5000 holiday there, I&#039;m sure I could scrounge the other $500 from somewhere...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like that &#8211; if someone paid me $4500 to take a $5000 holiday there, I&#8217;m sure I could scrounge the other $500 from somewhere&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: M.G. in Progress</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/28/does-dubai-matter-ask-ireland/#comment-34785</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M.G. in Progress]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 07:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5605#comment-34785</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I do not know if Dubai matters but I think debt in general does...
http://mgiannini.blogspot.com/2009/11/rich-countries-bond-defaults-or-debt.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not know if Dubai matters but I think debt in general does&#8230;<br />
<a href="http://mgiannini.blogspot.com/2009/11/rich-countries-bond-defaults-or-debt.html" rel="nofollow">http://mgiannini.blogspot.com/2009/11/rich-countries-bond-defaults-or-debt.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jerry J</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/28/does-dubai-matter-ask-ireland/#comment-34783</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jerry J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 03:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5605#comment-34783</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If push comes to shove why would either Dubai the state, Abu Dhabi  or the Emirates  as a whole make good on the corporate debt of Dubai World?

The Telegraph article above  quotes the  corporate debt at $70 bn. 

Dubai itself could put the corporation in a bankruptcy situation wherein the state acts as trustee to operate the business&#039; of Dubai World so as to  preserve the assets. That is, the real  estate is now so all pervasive they cannot abandon it and stay viable.   Whatever cash flow there is after cash expenses is distributed to the creditors for as  long as it takes.    If the values of the assets get truly low condemn them out and distribute the money.

After all, the Rio Grande Southern Railroad was in bankruptcy for around 40 years. They had 1905 bonds with accrued interest never paid that exceeded bond principle by the time they shut down and were scrapped in 1951.  
  
Dubai the state must do something in  2009 or 2010.  The creditors make a deal or they can wait till hell freezes over if the state is unable or unwilling to make good.  

 Why not say .. hey people, you bought insurance collect from the insurance company.   We are dealing after all with sovereigns at the end of the day.  If they cannot pay anyway what else is to be done but telling the creditors so sorry but you wait for the assets to pay off. Sovereign jingle mailing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If push comes to shove why would either Dubai the state, Abu Dhabi  or the Emirates  as a whole make good on the corporate debt of Dubai World?</p>
<p>The Telegraph article above  quotes the  corporate debt at $70 bn. </p>
<p>Dubai itself could put the corporation in a bankruptcy situation wherein the state acts as trustee to operate the business&#8217; of Dubai World so as to  preserve the assets. That is, the real  estate is now so all pervasive they cannot abandon it and stay viable.   Whatever cash flow there is after cash expenses is distributed to the creditors for as  long as it takes.    If the values of the assets get truly low condemn them out and distribute the money.</p>
<p>After all, the Rio Grande Southern Railroad was in bankruptcy for around 40 years. They had 1905 bonds with accrued interest never paid that exceeded bond principle by the time they shut down and were scrapped in 1951.  </p>
<p>Dubai the state must do something in  2009 or 2010.  The creditors make a deal or they can wait till hell freezes over if the state is unable or unwilling to make good.  </p>
<p> Why not say .. hey people, you bought insurance collect from the insurance company.   We are dealing after all with sovereigns at the end of the day.  If they cannot pay anyway what else is to be done but telling the creditors so sorry but you wait for the assets to pay off. Sovereign jingle mailing.</p>
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		<title>By: Young Economist</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/28/does-dubai-matter-ask-ireland/#comment-34781</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Young Economist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 01:08:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5605#comment-34781</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[UAE also have no capability to support Dubai because they already have 60% debt-to-GDP and if they include Dubai world, their debt/GDP will jump to 100% that will cause the sovereign debt default spiral in Middle East region or even in emerging market.

The private restructuring is the best choice for Dubai and UAE countries or not the best choice for creditor but this would be the best choice for global market to show that government-holding company will also be restructured under the private method and moral hazard of understanding that government will support all the losses of government-holding companies will reduce or disappear. But one thing we know is wrong is that the credit rating companies tend to give higher rate for the government-holding companies from government support and that is wrong because that is not reflecting the fundamental of companies and credit rating should separate the support of government from the strength of each individual companies.

Another thing that we can expect is that all central banks policies to inject liquidity failed to tackle to bankruptcy of the companies or even sovereign debt default crisis in the fragile companies or countries because, for example, Dubai world that may have debt near 100 billion with market value of assets that are likely to be lower than book values by more than 30-50%, meaning that Dubai world has already bankrupted. A lot of  Dubai assets can never generate cashflow currently but in the future and book value is higher than the intrinsic value that may be from the fraud in the companies or the wrong decision of management.

The zombie banks and corporate are still a lot in US, Europe, Asia and emerging markets and have never been restructured to improve the capital adequacy or the profitability. We never know the book value is reflecting the real market value of the companies and we could face the unexpected default from here in corporate and sovereign debt default.

Thanks for Benanke who support the excessive speculation currently in financial world with reduction of the risk aversion of tailed risk, like unexpected default and surely, if there is the unexpected shock like default risk with excessive risk taking without central banks control, we can never avoid the crisis like subprime crisis in the future. Should we support FED creating the subprime speculation with too low interest rate without any regulatory or expert committee audit? 

It is time to tackle excessive speculation and focuses on the real restructuring in the companies and sovereign balance sheets and income statements.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>UAE also have no capability to support Dubai because they already have 60% debt-to-GDP and if they include Dubai world, their debt/GDP will jump to 100% that will cause the sovereign debt default spiral in Middle East region or even in emerging market.</p>
<p>The private restructuring is the best choice for Dubai and UAE countries or not the best choice for creditor but this would be the best choice for global market to show that government-holding company will also be restructured under the private method and moral hazard of understanding that government will support all the losses of government-holding companies will reduce or disappear. But one thing we know is wrong is that the credit rating companies tend to give higher rate for the government-holding companies from government support and that is wrong because that is not reflecting the fundamental of companies and credit rating should separate the support of government from the strength of each individual companies.</p>
<p>Another thing that we can expect is that all central banks policies to inject liquidity failed to tackle to bankruptcy of the companies or even sovereign debt default crisis in the fragile companies or countries because, for example, Dubai world that may have debt near 100 billion with market value of assets that are likely to be lower than book values by more than 30-50%, meaning that Dubai world has already bankrupted. A lot of  Dubai assets can never generate cashflow currently but in the future and book value is higher than the intrinsic value that may be from the fraud in the companies or the wrong decision of management.</p>
<p>The zombie banks and corporate are still a lot in US, Europe, Asia and emerging markets and have never been restructured to improve the capital adequacy or the profitability. We never know the book value is reflecting the real market value of the companies and we could face the unexpected default from here in corporate and sovereign debt default.</p>
<p>Thanks for Benanke who support the excessive speculation currently in financial world with reduction of the risk aversion of tailed risk, like unexpected default and surely, if there is the unexpected shock like default risk with excessive risk taking without central banks control, we can never avoid the crisis like subprime crisis in the future. Should we support FED creating the subprime speculation with too low interest rate without any regulatory or expert committee audit? </p>
<p>It is time to tackle excessive speculation and focuses on the real restructuring in the companies and sovereign balance sheets and income statements.</p>
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		<title>By: Hoi Polloi</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/28/does-dubai-matter-ask-ireland/#comment-34780</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hoi Polloi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:52:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5605#comment-34780</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was just wondering, if Dubai couldn&#039;t bail Dubai World out for $ 4,3 Billion, whilst apparently having assets worth well over $ 1 Trillion (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/louisearmitstead/5829577/Dubai_finally_reveals_its_financial_position/) against debts of $ 100 Billion, then what really is going on? They sked for 6 months not just a couple of days/weeks. Maybe the whole country is broke? And Abu Dhabi might be in trouble as well...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just wondering, if Dubai couldn&#8217;t bail Dubai World out for $ 4,3 Billion, whilst apparently having assets worth well over $ 1 Trillion (<a href="http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/louisearmitstead/5829577/Dubai_finally_reveals_its_financial_position/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/louisearmitstead/5829577/Dubai_finally_reveals_its_financial_position/</a>) against debts of $ 100 Billion, then what really is going on? They sked for 6 months not just a couple of days/weeks. Maybe the whole country is broke? And Abu Dhabi might be in trouble as well&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bond Girl</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/28/does-dubai-matter-ask-ireland/#comment-34779</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bond Girl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:58:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5605#comment-34779</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dubai World is wholly-owned by the government.

There are many ironies to this situation:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/head-of-dubai-world-threatens-to-take-his-money-out-of-europe-790076.html

My question about the Federal Reserve was somewhat rhetorical.  If our central bank has to manipulate the yield curve to keep our banks stable, despite the risks associated with that policy, and part of the reason that it has to do so is to offset real or potential losses associated with distressed sovereign debt, that would suggest that the borrowing habits of small states have an influence over our monetary policy (and it should be the other way around).  And that should be a very scary thought, which should give our government some incentive to address the issues of moral hazard and capital flows.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dubai World is wholly-owned by the government.</p>
<p>There are many ironies to this situation:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/head-of-dubai-world-threatens-to-take-his-money-out-of-europe-790076.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/head-of-dubai-world-threatens-to-take-his-money-out-of-europe-790076.html</a></p>
<p>My question about the Federal Reserve was somewhat rhetorical.  If our central bank has to manipulate the yield curve to keep our banks stable, despite the risks associated with that policy, and part of the reason that it has to do so is to offset real or potential losses associated with distressed sovereign debt, that would suggest that the borrowing habits of small states have an influence over our monetary policy (and it should be the other way around).  And that should be a very scary thought, which should give our government some incentive to address the issues of moral hazard and capital flows.</p>
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		<title>By: Bond Girl</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/28/does-dubai-matter-ask-ireland/#comment-34778</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bond Girl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:29:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5605#comment-34778</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dubai was a British protectorate until 1971.  Hence the strong financial ties there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dubai was a British protectorate until 1971.  Hence the strong financial ties there.</p>
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