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	<title>Comments on: How Big Is Too Big?</title>
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	<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/26/how-big-is-too-big/</link>
	<description>What happened to the global economy and what we can do about it</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: All Loans</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/26/how-big-is-too-big/#comment-35539</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[All Loans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:10:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5598#comment-35539</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[nice share!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nice share!</p>
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		<title>By: P.M.</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/26/how-big-is-too-big/#comment-34891</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[P.M.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 09:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Great post; heavy questions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post; heavy questions.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/26/how-big-is-too-big/#comment-34749</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 04:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Sure, any institution can fail, no matter how big or small.  The question should be, when does an institution get so big that its failure causes catastrophic damage to our (or the worlds) economy?  

It&#039;s true that assests of any bank would be sold at auction, if there were anyone left to pick up the pieces.  What if several &quot;too big&quot; banking institutions were to fail within days of each other, causing a rippling affect and taking hundreds of smaller institutions with them?  At the same time, what if the failure of so many banking institutions should lead to a catastrophic failure of thousands of other institutions, both large and small, that depend on the banking industry for daily survival?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure, any institution can fail, no matter how big or small.  The question should be, when does an institution get so big that its failure causes catastrophic damage to our (or the worlds) economy?  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that assests of any bank would be sold at auction, if there were anyone left to pick up the pieces.  What if several &#8220;too big&#8221; banking institutions were to fail within days of each other, causing a rippling affect and taking hundreds of smaller institutions with them?  At the same time, what if the failure of so many banking institutions should lead to a catastrophic failure of thousands of other institutions, both large and small, that depend on the banking industry for daily survival?</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry J</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/26/how-big-is-too-big/#comment-34744</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jerry J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 01:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5598#comment-34744</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Too big to fail&quot; has acquired a  general meaning all it&#039;s  own since  August 2008.  There is a perception among those with investments in the banking system that  there is a point where size  does in fact imperil an investment they make in the system. A time to bail out.  

Why should the assets be sold in bankruptcy? Why not an old fashioned  reorganization in bankruptcy?   The creditors live with their  choice of assets they desired to partake in?   As an example,  the affiliated  group stays intact for simplicity here  only and all the creditors lose a portion of their deposits and loans and receive common stock in exchange. They pick the new board of directors who picks the new  officers.  Naturally,  the depositors would be sequestered as to velocity of withdrawls.  

Regulation requires a framework from which to work.  &quot;Too big to fail &quot;  is a framework from which to design a set of rules that mitigate excess as a form of prior restraint. Prior restraint does fail too.  So, on balance institutional complexity forces prior restraint. 

Given the complexity of the financial system and the obvious fact of systemic decline  resulting from marginal economic returns , the political system must address the issue to attempt to reverse those declining marginal returns. What are  declining marginal returns in a financial system? Well, they are obviously the point where the financial system generates loans that fail in sufficient amounts as  to imperil lending in a credit based system. 

The object is to politically set up devices to prevent  credit losses in a banking system that imperil the system.  Is this possible?   If it is not possible, the  system has run out of time and must reduce itself to a simpler more parochial character.
 Does limiting size based on assets accomplish this? Probably somewhat.  Limiting size is a backhanded way of  forcing  simplicity. Would this work?   That depends on the flexibility built into the new regulatory system. 

 Joseph Tainter in the summary of his &quot; The collapse of Complex Societies&quot; certainly thinks so. Page 198.  And I am keeping it short.

&quot; Complex societies,it must be emphasized again,are recent in human history. Collapse then is not a fall to some primordial chaos,but a return to the normal human condition of lower complexity......  To the extent that collapse is due to declining marginal returns on investment in complexity, it is an economizing process.&quot;


What we do know as a result of the last several years is that the complexity inherent in size and organization of the credit system is that it is no longer marginally capable of generating sufficient loans that get paid back.  The complexity exceeds marginal returns.    Size is an important factor in the systemic credit system failure we are seeing. It is hardly the only contributing feature.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Too big to fail&#8221; has acquired a  general meaning all it&#8217;s  own since  August 2008.  There is a perception among those with investments in the banking system that  there is a point where size  does in fact imperil an investment they make in the system. A time to bail out.  </p>
<p>Why should the assets be sold in bankruptcy? Why not an old fashioned  reorganization in bankruptcy?   The creditors live with their  choice of assets they desired to partake in?   As an example,  the affiliated  group stays intact for simplicity here  only and all the creditors lose a portion of their deposits and loans and receive common stock in exchange. They pick the new board of directors who picks the new  officers.  Naturally,  the depositors would be sequestered as to velocity of withdrawls.  </p>
<p>Regulation requires a framework from which to work.  &#8220;Too big to fail &#8221;  is a framework from which to design a set of rules that mitigate excess as a form of prior restraint. Prior restraint does fail too.  So, on balance institutional complexity forces prior restraint. </p>
<p>Given the complexity of the financial system and the obvious fact of systemic decline  resulting from marginal economic returns , the political system must address the issue to attempt to reverse those declining marginal returns. What are  declining marginal returns in a financial system? Well, they are obviously the point where the financial system generates loans that fail in sufficient amounts as  to imperil lending in a credit based system. </p>
<p>The object is to politically set up devices to prevent  credit losses in a banking system that imperil the system.  Is this possible?   If it is not possible, the  system has run out of time and must reduce itself to a simpler more parochial character.<br />
 Does limiting size based on assets accomplish this? Probably somewhat.  Limiting size is a backhanded way of  forcing  simplicity. Would this work?   That depends on the flexibility built into the new regulatory system. </p>
<p> Joseph Tainter in the summary of his &#8221; The collapse of Complex Societies&#8221; certainly thinks so. Page 198.  And I am keeping it short.</p>
<p>&#8221; Complex societies,it must be emphasized again,are recent in human history. Collapse then is not a fall to some primordial chaos,but a return to the normal human condition of lower complexity&#8230;&#8230;  To the extent that collapse is due to declining marginal returns on investment in complexity, it is an economizing process.&#8221;</p>
<p>What we do know as a result of the last several years is that the complexity inherent in size and organization of the credit system is that it is no longer marginally capable of generating sufficient loans that get paid back.  The complexity exceeds marginal returns.    Size is an important factor in the systemic credit system failure we are seeing. It is hardly the only contributing feature.</p>
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		<title>By: buck smith</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/26/how-big-is-too-big/#comment-34743</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[buck smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 01:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5598#comment-34743</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How can securitization of bad mortgages and synthetic CDOs of mortgage securities be a bigger problem for the whole economy than the Bad mortgages themselves? Take a bad mortgage and split into the risky part and the safe part.  Post meltdown the safe part still has value. Houses in Las Vegas, Arizona and Florida do not have negative values.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How can securitization of bad mortgages and synthetic CDOs of mortgage securities be a bigger problem for the whole economy than the Bad mortgages themselves? Take a bad mortgage and split into the risky part and the safe part.  Post meltdown the safe part still has value. Houses in Las Vegas, Arizona and Florida do not have negative values.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/26/how-big-is-too-big/#comment-34742</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 01:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5598#comment-34742</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This whole post is a canard. There is no such thing as too big to fail. The assets of any failed bank are sold in bankruptcy and all the creditors who could be paid would be. The liabilities of the bank could be 1 trillion, but the actual loss would be a small percentage of that ASSUMING the actors in the system force the bankruptcy of the bank once they are insolvent. Pretending is what has caused us to see 50% losses in FDIC takeovers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole post is a canard. There is no such thing as too big to fail. The assets of any failed bank are sold in bankruptcy and all the creditors who could be paid would be. The liabilities of the bank could be 1 trillion, but the actual loss would be a small percentage of that ASSUMING the actors in the system force the bankruptcy of the bank once they are insolvent. Pretending is what has caused us to see 50% losses in FDIC takeovers.</p>
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		<title>By: buck smith</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/26/how-big-is-too-big/#comment-34741</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[buck smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 01:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5598#comment-34741</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So risky mortgage origination did not drive the ponzi valuations?  Gimme a break.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So risky mortgage origination did not drive the ponzi valuations?  Gimme a break.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: jake chase</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/26/how-big-is-too-big/#comment-34739</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jake chase]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:56:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5598#comment-34739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bad mortgages were a relatively small problem; securitizations of bad mortgages and synthetic CDOs of mortgage securities introduced a leverage factor estimated at 100 times. You have to understand that virtually all the bank profits (and banker bonuses) were attributable to a half dozen years of these CDOs and the imbedded correlation risk which none of the rating agencies understood. This is what created the meltdown, and it is why all the &#039;assets&#039; acquired by the Fed are probably worthless.

You can try to understand this or stick with Glen Beck.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bad mortgages were a relatively small problem; securitizations of bad mortgages and synthetic CDOs of mortgage securities introduced a leverage factor estimated at 100 times. You have to understand that virtually all the bank profits (and banker bonuses) were attributable to a half dozen years of these CDOs and the imbedded correlation risk which none of the rating agencies understood. This is what created the meltdown, and it is why all the &#8216;assets&#8217; acquired by the Fed are probably worthless.</p>
<p>You can try to understand this or stick with Glen Beck.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/26/how-big-is-too-big/#comment-34738</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5598#comment-34738</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi,
I enjoyed reading this article  and your blog. I also write  a few articles on  the current  Australian fianancial news on my blog . I would be humbled  if you could do a link exchange with my blog. My blog is at www.australianstockwatch.com .  Do let me know and I can send the code for the link exchange . I am available on  email at jeromejf at hotmail.com . 

Thanks
Jeff]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,<br />
I enjoyed reading this article  and your blog. I also write  a few articles on  the current  Australian fianancial news on my blog . I would be humbled  if you could do a link exchange with my blog. My blog is at <a href="http://www.australianstockwatch.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.australianstockwatch.com</a> .  Do let me know and I can send the code for the link exchange . I am available on  email at jeromejf at hotmail.com . </p>
<p>Thanks<br />
Jeff</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry J</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/26/how-big-is-too-big/#comment-34736</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jerry J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:40:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5598#comment-34736</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Effective solutions to problems exposed by the financial collapse will never be wholly cured.  Remediation that is effective will , of necessity, be required to be very comprehensive.  

Absolutely, banks and any other type of financial institution must be prevented from reaching too big  to fail.  Beyond that, the financial regulation  system must keep all  types of organizational structures on an even playing field. That means a form of required asset reserves for all types of deposit takers including investment vehicles that might be a substitute for banking institutions. Credit default swaps are insurance and those in the business must be required to hold reserves the same as any other insured interest arrangements.  We will never see global uniformity of these kinds of remediation so preventative measures to avoid evasion mus be in place. A simple one is an excise tax on the recipient of retail premiums  if the   insured risk counterparty is exempted from US rules.  The same device might be  used  in other areas of risk to prevent avoidance.   Retail banking should again be separated at the holding company level from investment  banking. And on and on the list might grow.

The other side of the coin here is that regulatory agencies will eventually  fall back into bastions of muddling bureaucracy.  But we already have  that on all sides of the finance system anyway with the penchant for unloading risk and trying to retain the  risk premium revenue at the same time. These kinds of activities will never be eliminated. Instead, leadership will have to deal with the moribund and aggressive grifting as a function of effective leadership. 

Will Congress be able to accomplish what it has rarely been able to accomplish with respect to financial reform? At some point Congress will understand that if they do not solve the problem their polity itself will disintegrate on them.   At some point they get cracking or else.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Effective solutions to problems exposed by the financial collapse will never be wholly cured.  Remediation that is effective will , of necessity, be required to be very comprehensive.  </p>
<p>Absolutely, banks and any other type of financial institution must be prevented from reaching too big  to fail.  Beyond that, the financial regulation  system must keep all  types of organizational structures on an even playing field. That means a form of required asset reserves for all types of deposit takers including investment vehicles that might be a substitute for banking institutions. Credit default swaps are insurance and those in the business must be required to hold reserves the same as any other insured interest arrangements.  We will never see global uniformity of these kinds of remediation so preventative measures to avoid evasion mus be in place. A simple one is an excise tax on the recipient of retail premiums  if the   insured risk counterparty is exempted from US rules.  The same device might be  used  in other areas of risk to prevent avoidance.   Retail banking should again be separated at the holding company level from investment  banking. And on and on the list might grow.</p>
<p>The other side of the coin here is that regulatory agencies will eventually  fall back into bastions of muddling bureaucracy.  But we already have  that on all sides of the finance system anyway with the penchant for unloading risk and trying to retain the  risk premium revenue at the same time. These kinds of activities will never be eliminated. Instead, leadership will have to deal with the moribund and aggressive grifting as a function of effective leadership. </p>
<p>Will Congress be able to accomplish what it has rarely been able to accomplish with respect to financial reform? At some point Congress will understand that if they do not solve the problem their polity itself will disintegrate on them.   At some point they get cracking or else.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted K</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/26/how-big-is-too-big/#comment-34735</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:29:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5598#comment-34735</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not knowledgeable enough to break down the details but it works vise versa.  There&#039;s a lawyer (I think his last name is Wise) who comments here sometimes, maybe he can tell you.  But it does work both ways in special cases.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not knowledgeable enough to break down the details but it works vise versa.  There&#8217;s a lawyer (I think his last name is Wise) who comments here sometimes, maybe he can tell you.  But it does work both ways in special cases.</p>
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		<title>By: paine</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/26/how-big-is-too-big/#comment-34733</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[paine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 18:14:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5598#comment-34733</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[if uncle had the aig roll  in this 
with some clear exchange sunshine on the action taken
 then yes maybe uncle allows too low premiums like with the total boondoggle pension insurance  fund 
but no panic no freeze up no crisis 
the sudden siezure syndrome is abolshed immediately
as with demand deposits after fidic so should all oblogations &quot;calm  down&quot;
no runs no panics 
scandals ??
of course
but the credit sea would roll on always as 
tranquil as before]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>if uncle had the aig roll  in this<br />
with some clear exchange sunshine on the action taken<br />
 then yes maybe uncle allows too low premiums like with the total boondoggle pension insurance  fund<br />
but no panic no freeze up no crisis<br />
the sudden siezure syndrome is abolshed immediately<br />
as with demand deposits after fidic so should all oblogations &#8220;calm  down&#8221;<br />
no runs no panics<br />
scandals ??<br />
of course<br />
but the credit sea would roll on always as<br />
tranquil as before</p>
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		<title>By: paine</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/26/how-big-is-too-big/#comment-34732</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[paine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 18:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5598#comment-34732</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[repeating this canard hardly improves its validity 

bucky

 the concentration of opaque risk holdings
 within hyper leveraged institutions was not a necessary consequence of risky mortgage origination

in fact it&#039;s still not clear the borrower risk was the problem if credit limits had been set lower
and ponzi valuations prohibited]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>repeating this canard hardly improves its validity </p>
<p>bucky</p>
<p> the concentration of opaque risk holdings<br />
 within hyper leveraged institutions was not a necessary consequence of risky mortgage origination</p>
<p>in fact it&#8217;s still not clear the borrower risk was the problem if credit limits had been set lower<br />
and ponzi valuations prohibited</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jessica</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/26/how-big-is-too-big/#comment-34731</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jessica]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 18:08:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5598#comment-34731</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JUDICIAL REVIEW---&quot;the court shall rescind or dismiss only those mitigatory actions it finds to be imposed in an arbitrary and capricious manner.&quot;  I thought the judicial system was an independent branch of government under the U. S. Constitution.  How is it that the Congress can limit the actions of the Federal courts?  Am I naive?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JUDICIAL REVIEW&#8212;&#8221;the court shall rescind or dismiss only those mitigatory actions it finds to be imposed in an arbitrary and capricious manner.&#8221;  I thought the judicial system was an independent branch of government under the U. S. Constitution.  How is it that the Congress can limit the actions of the Federal courts?  Am I naive?</p>
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		<title>By: paine</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/26/how-big-is-too-big/#comment-34730</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[paine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 18:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5598#comment-34730</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;removes all of its present guarantee programs,&quot;
these safe guards amount to socializations
they worked for fdic why not more broadly 
the key is some serious risl premiums 
on both individual holding and total portfolio profile 
the attempt to reduce leverage is an attempt to 
control risk by controling profitability 
it adds nothing to the consequences of default 
to the lender or investor 
why not tag the investment or loan up front one by one
with a mandatory insurance premimum
AIG stuff but thru a federal insurance outfit 
believe me even if institutions were allowed to operate outside this insured sector
their cost of funds would spontaneously move 
the action more and more to inside the insured sector]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;removes all of its present guarantee programs,&#8221;<br />
these safe guards amount to socializations<br />
they worked for fdic why not more broadly<br />
the key is some serious risl premiums<br />
on both individual holding and total portfolio profile<br />
the attempt to reduce leverage is an attempt to<br />
control risk by controling profitability<br />
it adds nothing to the consequences of default<br />
to the lender or investor<br />
why not tag the investment or loan up front one by one<br />
with a mandatory insurance premimum<br />
AIG stuff but thru a federal insurance outfit<br />
believe me even if institutions were allowed to operate outside this insured sector<br />
their cost of funds would spontaneously move<br />
the action more and more to inside the insured sector</p>
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