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	<title>Comments on: Blaming It on Obama</title>
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	<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/23/government-debt-obama-budgets/</link>
	<description>What happened to the global economy and what we can do about it</description>
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		<title>By: Ted Kaminski</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/23/government-debt-obama-budgets/#comment-34708</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted Kaminski]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 06:41:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5565#comment-34708</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There would be an even higher than normal level of unemployment if the government had not stepped in to restructure GM and Chrysler. It is hopeful that by this spring GM will no longer be &quot;socialized&quot; as the right would say, but be back in the private sector. 

The root of President Obama&#039;s failure is the lack of will to treat the largest banks in the same manner as GM. No restructuring has been done to them and none of their executives have lost jobs due to their failures because of the government bail out of them. I would like to know of any FDIC restructuring of banks, like say Indy Mac, where the executives and shareholders were left whole.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There would be an even higher than normal level of unemployment if the government had not stepped in to restructure GM and Chrysler. It is hopeful that by this spring GM will no longer be &#8220;socialized&#8221; as the right would say, but be back in the private sector. </p>
<p>The root of President Obama&#8217;s failure is the lack of will to treat the largest banks in the same manner as GM. No restructuring has been done to them and none of their executives have lost jobs due to their failures because of the government bail out of them. I would like to know of any FDIC restructuring of banks, like say Indy Mac, where the executives and shareholders were left whole.</p>
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		<title>By: Doctor Hallenstein</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/23/government-debt-obama-budgets/#comment-34660</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doctor Hallenstein]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:09:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5565#comment-34660</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pretty clever isn&#039;t he? ... and not a US citizen! Wow! He should be president.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pretty clever isn&#8217;t he? &#8230; and not a US citizen! Wow! He should be president.</p>
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		<title>By: Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/23/government-debt-obama-budgets/#comment-34612</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5565#comment-34612</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When you&#039;re off by a factor of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0919/p02s13-usgn.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;1000x&lt;/a&gt;, you&#039;ve lost all credibility and live in a fantasy land no more real than Where the Wild Things Are.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When you&#8217;re off by a factor of <a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0919/p02s13-usgn.html" rel="nofollow">1000x</a>, you&#8217;ve lost all credibility and live in a fantasy land no more real than Where the Wild Things Are.</p>
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		<title>By: Sid</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/23/government-debt-obama-budgets/#comment-34601</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sid]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:04:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5565#comment-34601</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have a car?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a car?</p>
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		<title>By: Ted K</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/23/government-debt-obama-budgets/#comment-34598</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 06:31:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5565#comment-34598</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the trick for President Obama is making prudent choices which are aimed at long-term success and not losing his base (his Democrat voting base).  Based on what he inherited, I&#039;m even willing to put up with a higher than normal level of unemployment, because President Obama can&#039;t correct the 8 years of &quot;W&quot; Bush&#039;s mistakes so quickly.  

But where he will lose me is signing legislation such as the Homebuyers Tax Credit (which only benefits bankers and realtors) and signing legislation for bailouts of companies such as GMAC which do not carry systemic risk.  President Obama needs to see to these type decisions more carefully.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the trick for President Obama is making prudent choices which are aimed at long-term success and not losing his base (his Democrat voting base).  Based on what he inherited, I&#8217;m even willing to put up with a higher than normal level of unemployment, because President Obama can&#8217;t correct the 8 years of &#8220;W&#8221; Bush&#8217;s mistakes so quickly.  </p>
<p>But where he will lose me is signing legislation such as the Homebuyers Tax Credit (which only benefits bankers and realtors) and signing legislation for bailouts of companies such as GMAC which do not carry systemic risk.  President Obama needs to see to these type decisions more carefully.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Coffman</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/23/government-debt-obama-budgets/#comment-34580</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Coffman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5565#comment-34580</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you, James, for putting the lie to Republican claims concerning Obama&#039;s deficit spending.  Now that they no longer control the purse, deficits are to be avoided at all cost (and most of those costs will be borne by those with the least).  We know that we got here, in large part, due to unstimulative tax cuts and unmanaged spending on a war of choice.  The issue is, where do we go from here.

I&#039;m not ready to join those who see apocolypse as the only alternative, although they may be right.  First, The finance industry must be brought under control by separating banking functions and imposing large taxes on large incomes.  It won&#039;t solve the problem but it will signal Main St. that the financial industry does not own Washington.  

Second, the country needs massive spending on infrastructure.  Such spending will increase the nation&#039;s capital assets while lowering unemployment for a time until the economy can pick up the slack.  If unemployment does not fall substantially and quickly, the country will be run by Beck, Palin and Rupe&#039;s other dupes.  Where does the money come from?  States don&#039;t have it and the private sector won&#039;t fund it so ultimately, it is down to the federal government.  It can take the form of direct spending or government guaranteed revenue bonds to be repaid by user fees on the rebuilt infrastructure.  It will raise the deficit one way or the other, at least on paper until the contingent liablity of the guarantees disappears.  But this nation will not grow without consumer spending, which will not increase materially until folks have jobs doing something other than flipping burgers or changing bedpans.  Better to put government funds to work to benefit all of us than to give it to bankers who use it to increse power and ever larger financial inequality.  

If government spending is going to bankrupt the nation at least give everyone a taste.  

If Obama doesn&#039;t do something fast to address the issues of unemployment and growing financial inequality, he will be a one-termer.  But Obama isn&#039;t the issue.  If we turn the government over to the current opposition, this country may lose its last best hope for returning to a more equitable distribution of wealth, power and freedom.  

We know who will be saddled with the debt if today&#039;s Republicans are in charge.  In that case, maybe the apocalypse is the better alternative.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, James, for putting the lie to Republican claims concerning Obama&#8217;s deficit spending.  Now that they no longer control the purse, deficits are to be avoided at all cost (and most of those costs will be borne by those with the least).  We know that we got here, in large part, due to unstimulative tax cuts and unmanaged spending on a war of choice.  The issue is, where do we go from here.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not ready to join those who see apocolypse as the only alternative, although they may be right.  First, The finance industry must be brought under control by separating banking functions and imposing large taxes on large incomes.  It won&#8217;t solve the problem but it will signal Main St. that the financial industry does not own Washington.  </p>
<p>Second, the country needs massive spending on infrastructure.  Such spending will increase the nation&#8217;s capital assets while lowering unemployment for a time until the economy can pick up the slack.  If unemployment does not fall substantially and quickly, the country will be run by Beck, Palin and Rupe&#8217;s other dupes.  Where does the money come from?  States don&#8217;t have it and the private sector won&#8217;t fund it so ultimately, it is down to the federal government.  It can take the form of direct spending or government guaranteed revenue bonds to be repaid by user fees on the rebuilt infrastructure.  It will raise the deficit one way or the other, at least on paper until the contingent liablity of the guarantees disappears.  But this nation will not grow without consumer spending, which will not increase materially until folks have jobs doing something other than flipping burgers or changing bedpans.  Better to put government funds to work to benefit all of us than to give it to bankers who use it to increse power and ever larger financial inequality.  </p>
<p>If government spending is going to bankrupt the nation at least give everyone a taste.  </p>
<p>If Obama doesn&#8217;t do something fast to address the issues of unemployment and growing financial inequality, he will be a one-termer.  But Obama isn&#8217;t the issue.  If we turn the government over to the current opposition, this country may lose its last best hope for returning to a more equitable distribution of wealth, power and freedom.  </p>
<p>We know who will be saddled with the debt if today&#8217;s Republicans are in charge.  In that case, maybe the apocalypse is the better alternative.</p>
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		<title>By: cougar_w</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/23/government-debt-obama-budgets/#comment-34579</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cougar_w]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:38:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5565#comment-34579</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A lot of complexity exists outside of mathematics. I come from a background in Biology where complex systems study consumes a life&#039;s work.

To your point that &quot;facts must follow belief&quot; it is easy to interpret as &quot;people are willfully blind to important realities&quot;.

As with animals living in complex ways in a single tide pool, I&#039;m not convinced it is entirely willful. And as applied to human affairs this has me worried.

One symptom of being trapped in a vast complex system is being blind to it. Do fish understand &quot;aquatic ecology&quot; or even &quot;water&quot;? It&#039;s not obvious until they are pulled out of it. Likewise we are all trapped within a complex environment that few (any?) of us can even begin to fully understand. And, it&#039;s badly broken. And one of the reasons we can even see it at all is because... it is badly broken.

A system too complex to hold together on its own, too complex to understand, and too complex to touch safely least of all fix. This is a very dangerous situation, IMO.

We are on the verge of becoming creatures stripped of our supporting systems. The collapse of our financial and governing institutions would have that effect. But what other way out is there? How shall we escape this machine except to step free of its wreckage?

cougar]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of complexity exists outside of mathematics. I come from a background in Biology where complex systems study consumes a life&#8217;s work.</p>
<p>To your point that &#8220;facts must follow belief&#8221; it is easy to interpret as &#8220;people are willfully blind to important realities&#8221;.</p>
<p>As with animals living in complex ways in a single tide pool, I&#8217;m not convinced it is entirely willful. And as applied to human affairs this has me worried.</p>
<p>One symptom of being trapped in a vast complex system is being blind to it. Do fish understand &#8220;aquatic ecology&#8221; or even &#8220;water&#8221;? It&#8217;s not obvious until they are pulled out of it. Likewise we are all trapped within a complex environment that few (any?) of us can even begin to fully understand. And, it&#8217;s badly broken. And one of the reasons we can even see it at all is because&#8230; it is badly broken.</p>
<p>A system too complex to hold together on its own, too complex to understand, and too complex to touch safely least of all fix. This is a very dangerous situation, IMO.</p>
<p>We are on the verge of becoming creatures stripped of our supporting systems. The collapse of our financial and governing institutions would have that effect. But what other way out is there? How shall we escape this machine except to step free of its wreckage?</p>
<p>cougar</p>
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		<title>By: Jessica</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/23/government-debt-obama-budgets/#comment-34577</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jessica]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5565#comment-34577</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[NKlein1553..i read your correction &quot;to right the real U.S economy &quot; to mean &quot;to correct&quot; as in &quot;to set upright that which has been overturned.&quot;  Works! Relax!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NKlein1553..i read your correction &#8220;to right the real U.S economy &#8221; to mean &#8220;to correct&#8221; as in &#8220;to set upright that which has been overturned.&#8221;  Works! Relax!</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry J</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/23/government-debt-obama-budgets/#comment-34574</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jerry J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5565#comment-34574</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you cougar_w.

I was thinking of the  mathematical metaphor.   Are not most of the important lessons of history  learning  from the failures? Another aspect is learning the ways that are not followed in a given  society. But right now the big lesson from the past not learned is that facts precede belief.  That facts cause changes based on different interpretations in any given situation.  The kicker in the US though is facts now  tend to be required to follow belief.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you cougar_w.</p>
<p>I was thinking of the  mathematical metaphor.   Are not most of the important lessons of history  learning  from the failures? Another aspect is learning the ways that are not followed in a given  society. But right now the big lesson from the past not learned is that facts precede belief.  That facts cause changes based on different interpretations in any given situation.  The kicker in the US though is facts now  tend to be required to follow belief.</p>
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		<title>By: cougar_w</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/23/government-debt-obama-budgets/#comment-34572</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cougar_w]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:12:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5565#comment-34572</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Complexity must be factored out of the systemic equation to maintain the present system. Political disintegration is one way complexity gets factored out.&quot;

I see that you understand.

However I would rewrite your final sentence as &quot;Political and cultural disintegration are the only way complexity gets factored out.&quot;

I know, it&#039;s terrifying. But that would be the lesson of history. And you humans are -- if nothing else -- willing captives of your own history.

cougar]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Complexity must be factored out of the systemic equation to maintain the present system. Political disintegration is one way complexity gets factored out.&#8221;</p>
<p>I see that you understand.</p>
<p>However I would rewrite your final sentence as &#8220;Political and cultural disintegration are the only way complexity gets factored out.&#8221;</p>
<p>I know, it&#8217;s terrifying. But that would be the lesson of history. And you humans are &#8212; if nothing else &#8212; willing captives of your own history.</p>
<p>cougar</p>
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		<title>By: cougar_w</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/23/government-debt-obama-budgets/#comment-34570</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cougar_w]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5565#comment-34570</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why is that true?

Even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Someone makes a correct prediction and it means... what exactly? At any instant in the day a million people predict a million equally unlikely things, a few of which turn out to actually be correct. Big deal. Can they do it twice in a row? Can they explain their methods of choosing among all possible outcomes? Rarely.

More important, who has the correct methodologies? Who has the correct initial parameters? I don&#039;t have the answer by the way, I&#039;m just saying that &quot;but he predicted it!&quot; is meaningless.

Now, tell me who accurately *modeled* it! The answer will probably be -- nobody did. That&#039;s perhaps because economics is less science and more sooth-saying religion, and we need to realize that before we&#039;ll be able to begin the heavy lifting required to get ourselves clear of this train wreck.

cougar]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is that true?</p>
<p>Even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Someone makes a correct prediction and it means&#8230; what exactly? At any instant in the day a million people predict a million equally unlikely things, a few of which turn out to actually be correct. Big deal. Can they do it twice in a row? Can they explain their methods of choosing among all possible outcomes? Rarely.</p>
<p>More important, who has the correct methodologies? Who has the correct initial parameters? I don&#8217;t have the answer by the way, I&#8217;m just saying that &#8220;but he predicted it!&#8221; is meaningless.</p>
<p>Now, tell me who accurately *modeled* it! The answer will probably be &#8212; nobody did. That&#8217;s perhaps because economics is less science and more sooth-saying religion, and we need to realize that before we&#8217;ll be able to begin the heavy lifting required to get ourselves clear of this train wreck.</p>
<p>cougar</p>
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		<title>By: cougar_w</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/23/government-debt-obama-budgets/#comment-34567</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cougar_w]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5565#comment-34567</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The only viable and sensible 10 year projection is that we do not under any scenario have 10 years to get a handle on this.

We have perhaps 10 months. And there are a lot of people in the crowd that would seriously peg it at less than that.

It is worth mentioning that as a practical matter this is a self-limiting problem in that if we don&#039;t get a handle on it, the system currently giving us nightmares will disintegrate and leave us with an opportunity not seen since the Middle Ages -- to start over from scratch.

You know what, that sounds just interesting enough that I&#039;d be willing to let all this proceed as it seems destined and see what turns up in a year or so.

cougar]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only viable and sensible 10 year projection is that we do not under any scenario have 10 years to get a handle on this.</p>
<p>We have perhaps 10 months. And there are a lot of people in the crowd that would seriously peg it at less than that.</p>
<p>It is worth mentioning that as a practical matter this is a self-limiting problem in that if we don&#8217;t get a handle on it, the system currently giving us nightmares will disintegrate and leave us with an opportunity not seen since the Middle Ages &#8212; to start over from scratch.</p>
<p>You know what, that sounds just interesting enough that I&#8217;d be willing to let all this proceed as it seems destined and see what turns up in a year or so.</p>
<p>cougar</p>
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		<title>By: cougar_w</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/23/government-debt-obama-budgets/#comment-34566</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cougar_w]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:45:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5565#comment-34566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The more intelligent criticism of Obama is addressed to the fact that he is an ignor amus and a charla tan.&quot;

Not really. Not intelligent in the least.

&quot;I have seen no evidence that this isn’t true.&quot;

I doubt you would recognize evidence if offered, but he *was* elected President of the United States in a fair election. I imagine that counts for something in most circles.

The problems run deeper and wider than you appear ready to accept, and have been in the ramp-up for perhaps 30 years, or even longer. That you cannot see that is a personal limitation, but it is a common one.

Complexity sucks. But get used to seeing it because you are surrounded by it. This because you are inside a machine you do not understand and it will grind us all into sausage if it doesn&#039;t operate correctly.

Which, at present, it is not. Not even close.

cougar]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The more intelligent criticism of Obama is addressed to the fact that he is an ignor amus and a charla tan.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not really. Not intelligent in the least.</p>
<p>&#8220;I have seen no evidence that this isn’t true.&#8221;</p>
<p>I doubt you would recognize evidence if offered, but he *was* elected President of the United States in a fair election. I imagine that counts for something in most circles.</p>
<p>The problems run deeper and wider than you appear ready to accept, and have been in the ramp-up for perhaps 30 years, or even longer. That you cannot see that is a personal limitation, but it is a common one.</p>
<p>Complexity sucks. But get used to seeing it because you are surrounded by it. This because you are inside a machine you do not understand and it will grind us all into sausage if it doesn&#8217;t operate correctly.</p>
<p>Which, at present, it is not. Not even close.</p>
<p>cougar</p>
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		<title>By: cougar_w</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/23/government-debt-obama-budgets/#comment-34564</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cougar_w]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5565#comment-34564</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wrong blog, Sparky. Just embarrassing yourself and undermining your cause with that kind of blather.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wrong blog, Sparky. Just embarrassing yourself and undermining your cause with that kind of blather.</p>
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		<title>By: NKlein1553</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/23/government-debt-obama-budgets/#comment-34562</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[NKlein1553]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5565#comment-34562</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What&#039;s even scarier is I teach teenagers how to write.  What I meant to write is &quot;write,&quot; not &quot;right.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s even scarier is I teach teenagers how to write.  What I meant to write is &#8220;write,&#8221; not &#8220;right.&#8221;</p>
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