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	<title>Comments on: Economics Puzzler of the Day</title>
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	<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/16/economics-puzzler-of-the-day/</link>
	<description>What happened to the global economy and what we can do about it</description>
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		<title>By: Jerry J</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/16/economics-puzzler-of-the-day/#comment-34191</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jerry J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:35:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5517#comment-34191</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No need to puke blood. The current net operating loss deduction section goes back to 1935.  Section 172.       Just for flavor, net operating losses of commercial banks had a special net operating loss carry back for losses caused by bad debts of ten years .  Section 172 (b)(D).  This was in effect for years beginning after 1986 and before 1994.  There  have long been special situation loss carry back provisions in  Sec. 172.   Individuals have net operating loss carry-backs too applied at the adjusted gross income level. Those too go back to 1935 as a genesis point.   

There were loss  carry forward provisions going back to the 1918 Act as I remember.

 Besides, the big banks got a special basis rule suspension in order to facilitate the big  mergers of banks and investment banks last year. This was done by Revenue Ruling and was not even a law change.  That was far more important than these carry back  changes to the big guys in the financial system.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No need to puke blood. The current net operating loss deduction section goes back to 1935.  Section 172.       Just for flavor, net operating losses of commercial banks had a special net operating loss carry back for losses caused by bad debts of ten years .  Section 172 (b)(D).  This was in effect for years beginning after 1986 and before 1994.  There  have long been special situation loss carry back provisions in  Sec. 172.   Individuals have net operating loss carry-backs too applied at the adjusted gross income level. Those too go back to 1935 as a genesis point.   </p>
<p>There were loss  carry forward provisions going back to the 1918 Act as I remember.</p>
<p> Besides, the big banks got a special basis rule suspension in order to facilitate the big  mergers of banks and investment banks last year. This was done by Revenue Ruling and was not even a law change.  That was far more important than these carry back  changes to the big guys in the financial system.</p>
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		<title>By: K Ackermann</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/16/economics-puzzler-of-the-day/#comment-34189</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[K Ackermann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:45:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[This is so disgusting that I could puke blood. Why bother doing good anymore?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is so disgusting that I could puke blood. Why bother doing good anymore?</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry J</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/16/economics-puzzler-of-the-day/#comment-34175</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jerry J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:42:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5517#comment-34175</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Fed&#039;s equity would only be destroyed if they sold the  mortgage backed assets at a loss.  If the entire Reserve Demand Deposits were brought down to zero by sending cash to the banks, the Federal Reserve Notes outstanding would increase by a like amount.  This is  actually a permitted action because bank vault cash today considerably exceeds reserve requirements.

The entry would be  Debit Reserve Demand Deposits $1.044 Trn and Credit Federal Reserve  Notes Outstanding  $1.044   Trn.

Of course , we are not China where there are almost no personal checking accounts. Consequently, the FRN&#039;s would get deposited and turned back in by the banks . Thus,their Reserve Demand Deposit Account increases.


There is an out here but it would take a law change allowing  electronic funds for general circulation on the same basis as currency. I can find no central bank  monetary system that allows general circulation of electronic funds. But , if it were allowed, those Reserve Demand Deposits would easily go to zero as fast as the banks could place the funds. 

When I discuss this with other Green Eyeshade types, I call these new general circulation  electronic funds &quot;   Electronic Gold  Funds.    All it takes is a parallel account the same as Federal Reserve Notes Outstanding.

So , absent the ability of  central banks to issue  circulating electronic funds , the monetary system is frozen out of any action other than issuing currency and very short term other devices  until the short term devices are absorbed by increased daily levels of  outstanding Federal Reserve Notes.

The reality is that the Federal Reserve is hog tied. The system was designed when US money needs were as heavily cash as China is now.  I received a pay envelope and so did my wife as late as 1959.    Very few people had checking accounts sixty years ago. They bought money orders if they did not pay in person.  Most bills were paid in person.  


Just to show how parlous the cash  position is at the banks, last week bank cash and equivalents was $1.209 trn.    Included were Reserve Demand Deposits of $1.044 trn.    The total included vault cash which has recently been around $50 bn. That leaves other cash to use for loans of $115 bn.  Much of this number must be relationship invested with other banks and would not be loanable.    That means the banks loan daily net cash inputs , if that. In short, they can loan repayments of principle they get in and not much more plus  net increased deposits.

But my only real point here is that the Cash and Equivalents of banks is only technically so.  There is no real liquidity in the banking system unless they sell off their Treasuries.  Given the need to raise around $100 bn a month at the Treasury, they dare not dump Treasuries to loan to business.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Fed&#8217;s equity would only be destroyed if they sold the  mortgage backed assets at a loss.  If the entire Reserve Demand Deposits were brought down to zero by sending cash to the banks, the Federal Reserve Notes outstanding would increase by a like amount.  This is  actually a permitted action because bank vault cash today considerably exceeds reserve requirements.</p>
<p>The entry would be  Debit Reserve Demand Deposits $1.044 Trn and Credit Federal Reserve  Notes Outstanding  $1.044   Trn.</p>
<p>Of course , we are not China where there are almost no personal checking accounts. Consequently, the FRN&#8217;s would get deposited and turned back in by the banks . Thus,their Reserve Demand Deposit Account increases.</p>
<p>There is an out here but it would take a law change allowing  electronic funds for general circulation on the same basis as currency. I can find no central bank  monetary system that allows general circulation of electronic funds. But , if it were allowed, those Reserve Demand Deposits would easily go to zero as fast as the banks could place the funds. </p>
<p>When I discuss this with other Green Eyeshade types, I call these new general circulation  electronic funds &#8221;   Electronic Gold  Funds.    All it takes is a parallel account the same as Federal Reserve Notes Outstanding.</p>
<p>So , absent the ability of  central banks to issue  circulating electronic funds , the monetary system is frozen out of any action other than issuing currency and very short term other devices  until the short term devices are absorbed by increased daily levels of  outstanding Federal Reserve Notes.</p>
<p>The reality is that the Federal Reserve is hog tied. The system was designed when US money needs were as heavily cash as China is now.  I received a pay envelope and so did my wife as late as 1959.    Very few people had checking accounts sixty years ago. They bought money orders if they did not pay in person.  Most bills were paid in person.  </p>
<p>Just to show how parlous the cash  position is at the banks, last week bank cash and equivalents was $1.209 trn.    Included were Reserve Demand Deposits of $1.044 trn.    The total included vault cash which has recently been around $50 bn. That leaves other cash to use for loans of $115 bn.  Much of this number must be relationship invested with other banks and would not be loanable.    That means the banks loan daily net cash inputs , if that. In short, they can loan repayments of principle they get in and not much more plus  net increased deposits.</p>
<p>But my only real point here is that the Cash and Equivalents of banks is only technically so.  There is no real liquidity in the banking system unless they sell off their Treasuries.  Given the need to raise around $100 bn a month at the Treasury, they dare not dump Treasuries to loan to business.</p>
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		<title>By: MattJ</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/16/economics-puzzler-of-the-day/#comment-34171</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MattJ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5517#comment-34171</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is of course a 33 billion dollar giveaway. The fact that the government will get less tax revenues from THESE companies in the future does not mean that the government will get less tax revenues in total, unless you believe that these companies are the only ones that are capable of ever building a home. This is a completely undeserved windfall for companies that mismanaged themselves into what should be extinction. This is the same kind of moral hazard that was created by saving the banks that should have failed over the last couple of years.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is of course a 33 billion dollar giveaway. The fact that the government will get less tax revenues from THESE companies in the future does not mean that the government will get less tax revenues in total, unless you believe that these companies are the only ones that are capable of ever building a home. This is a completely undeserved windfall for companies that mismanaged themselves into what should be extinction. This is the same kind of moral hazard that was created by saving the banks that should have failed over the last couple of years.</p>
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		<title>By: c smith</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/16/economics-puzzler-of-the-day/#comment-34158</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[c smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5517#comment-34158</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fascinating how the simple mechanism of double entry bookkeeping reveals the illiquidity within the system. The so-called &quot;massive&quot; reserves at the banks aren&#039;t being lent because they aren&#039;t real. Any attempt to lend them AS CASH destroys the Fed&#039;s equity account.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating how the simple mechanism of double entry bookkeeping reveals the illiquidity within the system. The so-called &#8220;massive&#8221; reserves at the banks aren&#8217;t being lent because they aren&#8217;t real. Any attempt to lend them AS CASH destroys the Fed&#8217;s equity account.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry J</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/16/economics-puzzler-of-the-day/#comment-34139</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jerry J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 03:19:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5517#comment-34139</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For now  let&#039;s see what shows up here.

Actually, the central bank transactions are not that difficult if the mind set is changed to the central bank being a bank for banks only.

For starters, compare a simple commercial unsecured loan by a bank to a  commercial customer.  Normally it starts out with a credit to the customers checking account.  A simple bookkeeping entry.  Debit loan receivable from Customer $1  Credit Demand Deposit of customer $1    The bank does not need to cover the loan until the customer writes a check  on his demand deposit account for $1.  Then the bank needs live funds to transfer $1 to the bank of the payee of check.

 Well , all that happened at the Federal  Reserve was that the FRB bought near $800 bn of mortgage backed securities and credited  the member banks reserve demand deposit account.There it sits and sits and sits for a whole year now if you include the Central Bank Liquidty Swap period as well.  Prior to  September 2008 the FRB&#039;s paid no interest. Special legislation was needed to pay  interest. They pay 16 basis points.   The FRB&#039;s bought mortgage backed securities with an interest average somewhere around 4% or a bit more net of servicing costs held back.    

From a forensic accounting perspective you must note two things. First.  The member banks are sitting on payments for $800 bn and not transferring the funds. Second. The interest spread is not showing up in the equity of the  FRB&#039;s.   But , it is showing up most  likely in the  general demand deposit account of the Treasury. Virtually all FRB profits effectively escheat to the Treasury. The net interest spread on the mortgage backed securities should be around $ 10-15 bn and indeed the increase in the  Treasury demand deposit account  is commensurate with such an observation with an year over year increase of near $13 bn.

 Now , why would the banks forgo $13 bn in exchange for less than $1 bn? And not even take down their Reserve Demand Deposit account to as near to zero as possible?   Prior to September 2008, the banks took down their Reserve Account to absolute minimum for the preceding 95 year history of the Federal Reserve System.

I see no commentary on this and wonder why?  


As in my prior post, what property would the member banks receive if they took their reserve demand deposit account down to effectively zero as they always did before?    In the past, outside of posted daily net clearings charged or credited to their account the member banks tended to turn in or settle out with currency.  

As an aside here, if the Federal Reserve loaned money to the bank, they would ship the value in currency to the bank to increase their vault cash as they did in 1933.  Otherwise, the FRB sells Treasuries to settle the loan with proceeds from sale of the  Treasuries. But these were always peanut numbers: low billions to millions and as a loan to a given bank. Here we have $1 trillion and counting from many banks as policy. 

It is an exercise in humor to go through what happens  in very short order if indeed the member banks took out currency of $1 trillion.   The humor goes well beyond the fact that printed currency stock on hand is  less than less $200 bn.

That leaves selling mortgage backed assets which is patently absurd since they would be required to be at 
100 .  The only buyer would be the very banks trying to cash out their  Reserve account.

If you cannot draw down the funds in a bank account you have loan receivable and do not have &quot;cash&quot;.  

Would you consider a one year post dated payroll check as money in the bank?  Well, the Federal Reserve Banks must now be doing just that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For now  let&#8217;s see what shows up here.</p>
<p>Actually, the central bank transactions are not that difficult if the mind set is changed to the central bank being a bank for banks only.</p>
<p>For starters, compare a simple commercial unsecured loan by a bank to a  commercial customer.  Normally it starts out with a credit to the customers checking account.  A simple bookkeeping entry.  Debit loan receivable from Customer $1  Credit Demand Deposit of customer $1    The bank does not need to cover the loan until the customer writes a check  on his demand deposit account for $1.  Then the bank needs live funds to transfer $1 to the bank of the payee of check.</p>
<p> Well , all that happened at the Federal  Reserve was that the FRB bought near $800 bn of mortgage backed securities and credited  the member banks reserve demand deposit account.There it sits and sits and sits for a whole year now if you include the Central Bank Liquidty Swap period as well.  Prior to  September 2008 the FRB&#8217;s paid no interest. Special legislation was needed to pay  interest. They pay 16 basis points.   The FRB&#8217;s bought mortgage backed securities with an interest average somewhere around 4% or a bit more net of servicing costs held back.    </p>
<p>From a forensic accounting perspective you must note two things. First.  The member banks are sitting on payments for $800 bn and not transferring the funds. Second. The interest spread is not showing up in the equity of the  FRB&#8217;s.   But , it is showing up most  likely in the  general demand deposit account of the Treasury. Virtually all FRB profits effectively escheat to the Treasury. The net interest spread on the mortgage backed securities should be around $ 10-15 bn and indeed the increase in the  Treasury demand deposit account  is commensurate with such an observation with an year over year increase of near $13 bn.</p>
<p> Now , why would the banks forgo $13 bn in exchange for less than $1 bn? And not even take down their Reserve Demand Deposit account to as near to zero as possible?   Prior to September 2008, the banks took down their Reserve Account to absolute minimum for the preceding 95 year history of the Federal Reserve System.</p>
<p>I see no commentary on this and wonder why?  </p>
<p>As in my prior post, what property would the member banks receive if they took their reserve demand deposit account down to effectively zero as they always did before?    In the past, outside of posted daily net clearings charged or credited to their account the member banks tended to turn in or settle out with currency.  </p>
<p>As an aside here, if the Federal Reserve loaned money to the bank, they would ship the value in currency to the bank to increase their vault cash as they did in 1933.  Otherwise, the FRB sells Treasuries to settle the loan with proceeds from sale of the  Treasuries. But these were always peanut numbers: low billions to millions and as a loan to a given bank. Here we have $1 trillion and counting from many banks as policy. </p>
<p>It is an exercise in humor to go through what happens  in very short order if indeed the member banks took out currency of $1 trillion.   The humor goes well beyond the fact that printed currency stock on hand is  less than less $200 bn.</p>
<p>That leaves selling mortgage backed assets which is patently absurd since they would be required to be at<br />
100 .  The only buyer would be the very banks trying to cash out their  Reserve account.</p>
<p>If you cannot draw down the funds in a bank account you have loan receivable and do not have &#8220;cash&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Would you consider a one year post dated payroll check as money in the bank?  Well, the Federal Reserve Banks must now be doing just that.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted K</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/16/economics-puzzler-of-the-day/#comment-34132</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 02:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5517#comment-34132</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Who would be the best person to ask???  Someone with prior experience at the Federal Reserve or..........?  It seems what you&#039;re saying is true, but honestly 80% of it is over my head.  Mike Konczal is good at crunching numbers, maybe you can e-mail him and see if he responds.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who would be the best person to ask???  Someone with prior experience at the Federal Reserve or&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.?  It seems what you&#8217;re saying is true, but honestly 80% of it is over my head.  Mike Konczal is good at crunching numbers, maybe you can e-mail him and see if he responds.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry J</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/16/economics-puzzler-of-the-day/#comment-34120</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jerry J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 23:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5517#comment-34120</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It depends on how you  define fiction.  Look at the Federal Reserve Bank Consolidated Balance Sheet this week.  Member bank and primary dealer  Reserve Deposit Accounts aggregate around $1.044 trillion compared to an average before  September 2008 of less than $10 billion .

Ask yourself  this as a member bank  this question. If we all  took our deposit down to  near zero, what property would we be given  to pay us off?  There are only two legal choices. Both are practically absurd from the traditional view of  a cash or equivalent.  Obviously, assuming enough currency was on hand, you could be  provided with Federal Reserve Notes.  But that would be moot because how could $1 trillion of FRN&#039;s be used in the present banking system.   The other solution is that the Federal Reserve Banks sell their mortgage backed securities  plus some other assets and utilize the proceeds to wire funds  to the banks taking down their reserve accounts. The banks must find a buyer for the entire $800 bn of  mortgage backed securities they own and carry at 100.  Even a small loss would destroy the Federal Reserve Banks entire equity of a little over $50 bn.   

My point here is to show that the present total of Reserve Deposits of  member banks is really very much illiquid and only technically a cash and equivalent   as shown in line 25  of  Table 8- the combined bank balance sheets presented on the Fed website.

Last week  the Fed  Table 8 Cash and Equivalents  was $1.2  trillion including $1 trillion of Reserve Demand Deposits  at the Fed. 

A lot of &quot;frozen assets&quot;  are shown as cash and equivalents on the bank balance sheets.

Look at footnote 4 on the Fed consolidated weekly balance sheet.  &quot; Guaranteed by Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae. Current face value of the securities which is the remaining principal balance of the underlying mortgages&quot;.

If you go back to before September 2008, bank  cash and equivalents  on Line 25 in Table  8 were around $250-$300 bn with included Reserve Demand Account totals averaging less than $10 bn.  That $10 bn  tended to be covered by daily asset sales or currency issued and was very small. 


 My sole point is to show that there is around $1 trillion of&quot;practically frozen&quot; liquidity on the banks books. That liquidity might be said to have been &quot;a mere reclassification entry&quot; on the bank&#039;s books. Debit cash and equivalents $1 Trillion   Credit illiquid Mortgage Backed Securities and Agencies  $1 trillion.

The Fed could do nothing more to stop the bank panic a year ago. It looks like the ploy worked due to the intervening  asset &quot; Central Bank Liquidity Swaps&quot;. The transaction was not fictional. The securities were bought by the FRB&#039;s and sold by the banks. Just think of the freed up  valuation reserves .  Were these transactions really just a vast longer term repo  where a legal sale occurred with a presumptive separate  repurchase at par by the banks?

At best this is a sequestered demand deposit.   

I am not a central banker but a retired tax accountant. I would love to be enlightened about why the post September 2008 Reserve Demand Deposit of member banks is a cash  equivalent.  Every accountant I raised this question with  were stunned by the implications that these balances were not freely employable capital for any investment member banks cared to make. Certainly  a small portion is freely employable... a very small portion at that.

I have found nothing written on this conundrum since the FRB&#039;s began  buying  mortgage backed securities.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It depends on how you  define fiction.  Look at the Federal Reserve Bank Consolidated Balance Sheet this week.  Member bank and primary dealer  Reserve Deposit Accounts aggregate around $1.044 trillion compared to an average before  September 2008 of less than $10 billion .</p>
<p>Ask yourself  this as a member bank  this question. If we all  took our deposit down to  near zero, what property would we be given  to pay us off?  There are only two legal choices. Both are practically absurd from the traditional view of  a cash or equivalent.  Obviously, assuming enough currency was on hand, you could be  provided with Federal Reserve Notes.  But that would be moot because how could $1 trillion of FRN&#8217;s be used in the present banking system.   The other solution is that the Federal Reserve Banks sell their mortgage backed securities  plus some other assets and utilize the proceeds to wire funds  to the banks taking down their reserve accounts. The banks must find a buyer for the entire $800 bn of  mortgage backed securities they own and carry at 100.  Even a small loss would destroy the Federal Reserve Banks entire equity of a little over $50 bn.   </p>
<p>My point here is to show that the present total of Reserve Deposits of  member banks is really very much illiquid and only technically a cash and equivalent   as shown in line 25  of  Table 8- the combined bank balance sheets presented on the Fed website.</p>
<p>Last week  the Fed  Table 8 Cash and Equivalents  was $1.2  trillion including $1 trillion of Reserve Demand Deposits  at the Fed. </p>
<p>A lot of &#8220;frozen assets&#8221;  are shown as cash and equivalents on the bank balance sheets.</p>
<p>Look at footnote 4 on the Fed consolidated weekly balance sheet.  &#8221; Guaranteed by Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae. Current face value of the securities which is the remaining principal balance of the underlying mortgages&#8221;.</p>
<p>If you go back to before September 2008, bank  cash and equivalents  on Line 25 in Table  8 were around $250-$300 bn with included Reserve Demand Account totals averaging less than $10 bn.  That $10 bn  tended to be covered by daily asset sales or currency issued and was very small. </p>
<p> My sole point is to show that there is around $1 trillion of&#8221;practically frozen&#8221; liquidity on the banks books. That liquidity might be said to have been &#8220;a mere reclassification entry&#8221; on the bank&#8217;s books. Debit cash and equivalents $1 Trillion   Credit illiquid Mortgage Backed Securities and Agencies  $1 trillion.</p>
<p>The Fed could do nothing more to stop the bank panic a year ago. It looks like the ploy worked due to the intervening  asset &#8221; Central Bank Liquidity Swaps&#8221;. The transaction was not fictional. The securities were bought by the FRB&#8217;s and sold by the banks. Just think of the freed up  valuation reserves .  Were these transactions really just a vast longer term repo  where a legal sale occurred with a presumptive separate  repurchase at par by the banks?</p>
<p>At best this is a sequestered demand deposit.   </p>
<p>I am not a central banker but a retired tax accountant. I would love to be enlightened about why the post September 2008 Reserve Demand Deposit of member banks is a cash  equivalent.  Every accountant I raised this question with  were stunned by the implications that these balances were not freely employable capital for any investment member banks cared to make. Certainly  a small portion is freely employable&#8230; a very small portion at that.</p>
<p>I have found nothing written on this conundrum since the FRB&#8217;s began  buying  mortgage backed securities.</p>
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		<title>By: c smith</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/16/economics-puzzler-of-the-day/#comment-34112</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[c smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5517#comment-34112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So what are you saying is the story here? Is it that the banks entered into fictional transactions with the Fed to boost their reserves? IOW, the Fed bought $800 billion of MBS at par to preserve both the solvency and capital ratios of the banks, when everyone knows those securities weren&#039;t worth par. The loss exists somewhere, and at this point its on the balance sheet of the Fed. Are you saying the banks would like to somehow book the (imaginary) losses on these bonds for tax purposes?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what are you saying is the story here? Is it that the banks entered into fictional transactions with the Fed to boost their reserves? IOW, the Fed bought $800 billion of MBS at par to preserve both the solvency and capital ratios of the banks, when everyone knows those securities weren&#8217;t worth par. The loss exists somewhere, and at this point its on the balance sheet of the Fed. Are you saying the banks would like to somehow book the (imaginary) losses on these bonds for tax purposes?</p>
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		<title>By: c smith</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/16/economics-puzzler-of-the-day/#comment-34111</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[c smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:22:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5517#comment-34111</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So the builders get cash in the form of a tax loss carryback. I get it. Doesn&#039;t make it a good use of limited tax dollars in a glutted marketplace. Housing subsidies are what got us into this mess, remember?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the builders get cash in the form of a tax loss carryback. I get it. Doesn&#8217;t make it a good use of limited tax dollars in a glutted marketplace. Housing subsidies are what got us into this mess, remember?</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry J</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/16/economics-puzzler-of-the-day/#comment-34108</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jerry J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5517#comment-34108</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The really big numbers in terms of carrying back to 2004 are the big  financial failures that were bought by bigger institutions.  I mean the corporate groups that disappeared into larger corporate  groups.  All of the failed corporate groups must have tried to recognize all the income they could  and losses to insure maximum carry back ability in their consolidated final return.    The corporate acquisitions would not close  until all desired tax position triggers had been accomplished.   

 I speak here of the  dead mortgage giants and corporate groups like AIG.  In all these cases the Federal takeover planning made sure the current  affiliated group was not broken.

In my view, it was the Treasury itself that most  desires a five year carry-back.  The Treasury and Fed understand that these big financial group tax refunds are back door financing to keep them going.  A huge tax refund reduces direct funding via Congress and reduces the political gnashing of the teeth .

Every takeover by the Treasury was deliberately structured to acquire less than 80 % of voting stock control.   That 79.9 % stock deal is elementary tax planning.   It is the chance to trigger hard  inside basis on all kinds of foreign assets in particular offsetting  triggered losses to the point where losses remaining just about cover carry-back availabilities.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The really big numbers in terms of carrying back to 2004 are the big  financial failures that were bought by bigger institutions.  I mean the corporate groups that disappeared into larger corporate  groups.  All of the failed corporate groups must have tried to recognize all the income they could  and losses to insure maximum carry back ability in their consolidated final return.    The corporate acquisitions would not close  until all desired tax position triggers had been accomplished.   </p>
<p> I speak here of the  dead mortgage giants and corporate groups like AIG.  In all these cases the Federal takeover planning made sure the current  affiliated group was not broken.</p>
<p>In my view, it was the Treasury itself that most  desires a five year carry-back.  The Treasury and Fed understand that these big financial group tax refunds are back door financing to keep them going.  A huge tax refund reduces direct funding via Congress and reduces the political gnashing of the teeth .</p>
<p>Every takeover by the Treasury was deliberately structured to acquire less than 80 % of voting stock control.   That 79.9 % stock deal is elementary tax planning.   It is the chance to trigger hard  inside basis on all kinds of foreign assets in particular offsetting  triggered losses to the point where losses remaining just about cover carry-back availabilities.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted K</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/16/economics-puzzler-of-the-day/#comment-34106</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5517#comment-34106</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s why I said before Gretchen Morgenson needs to follow this up and see who wrote the tax break into the bill and who supported it and look for connection to the home-building lobbyists on K Street.  I guess she (or her Editor) will drop the ball on this.  &quot;Follow up&quot; stories are just for celebrity news now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s why I said before Gretchen Morgenson needs to follow this up and see who wrote the tax break into the bill and who supported it and look for connection to the home-building lobbyists on K Street.  I guess she (or her Editor) will drop the ball on this.  &#8220;Follow up&#8221; stories are just for celebrity news now.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry J</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/16/economics-puzzler-of-the-day/#comment-34103</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jerry J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:53:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5517#comment-34103</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We will not really get a handle on the extent of actual net operating loss carry-backs to 2003 and 2004 by the big financial institutions until after release of the 2009 annual report.  You certainly are able to get at least a peek at the banker fright from  detailed analyses of the 2008 Annual Report Tax Provision details.

I looked at quite a few big institution tax provisions 2008 annual report and many had a Currently Payable Federal  Tax Provision and quite a few had Currently Refundable Federal Tax Provisions.

 It was clear to me though that there was sizeable repatriation of foreign earnings in 2008 which , of course, were fully provided for.  The crisis hit in September and many net refundable current provisions were far less than one would expect and  the deferred provisions were  reductions.  That suggests  earnings were repatriated  out of desperate need.

 Another aspect of the tax carry-back mine is that many big institutions had low currently payable provisions in 2003 due to carry-forwards from 1999-2001 losses being applied.

While we will not know for sure until next spring but  2009 carried back to 2004 probably represents the big  gold mine based on tax planning in 2009 .

I fully expected a five year carry-back law change under the circumstances.


On the other hand, the Federal Reserve Banks bought almost $800 bn of mortgage backed securities they carry at 100 on their books from member banks.   The sale proceeds to the banks simply sit in their Reserve Demand Deposit Accounts earning 16 basis points.   This suggests that the banks have little or no realized tax losses on the sale of these mortgage backed securities to the  Federal Reserve Banks.  They sold at par to keep frozen funds at the Fed unless the Fed sells these same assets back to the member banks.  Barring settlement in currency, of course.

There is a huge story here that has seen little investigation by the financial press.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We will not really get a handle on the extent of actual net operating loss carry-backs to 2003 and 2004 by the big financial institutions until after release of the 2009 annual report.  You certainly are able to get at least a peek at the banker fright from  detailed analyses of the 2008 Annual Report Tax Provision details.</p>
<p>I looked at quite a few big institution tax provisions 2008 annual report and many had a Currently Payable Federal  Tax Provision and quite a few had Currently Refundable Federal Tax Provisions.</p>
<p> It was clear to me though that there was sizeable repatriation of foreign earnings in 2008 which , of course, were fully provided for.  The crisis hit in September and many net refundable current provisions were far less than one would expect and  the deferred provisions were  reductions.  That suggests  earnings were repatriated  out of desperate need.</p>
<p> Another aspect of the tax carry-back mine is that many big institutions had low currently payable provisions in 2003 due to carry-forwards from 1999-2001 losses being applied.</p>
<p>While we will not know for sure until next spring but  2009 carried back to 2004 probably represents the big  gold mine based on tax planning in 2009 .</p>
<p>I fully expected a five year carry-back law change under the circumstances.</p>
<p>On the other hand, the Federal Reserve Banks bought almost $800 bn of mortgage backed securities they carry at 100 on their books from member banks.   The sale proceeds to the banks simply sit in their Reserve Demand Deposit Accounts earning 16 basis points.   This suggests that the banks have little or no realized tax losses on the sale of these mortgage backed securities to the  Federal Reserve Banks.  They sold at par to keep frozen funds at the Fed unless the Fed sells these same assets back to the member banks.  Barring settlement in currency, of course.</p>
<p>There is a huge story here that has seen little investigation by the financial press.</p>
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		<title>By: wally</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/16/economics-puzzler-of-the-day/#comment-34091</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[wally]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5517#comment-34091</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think there is some clear value in both carry-forwards and carry-backs.. probably both on a diminishing-value scale. They help stabilize business cycles.
What rankles, however, about this one is that it was directly purchased after-the-fact from politicians. I don&#039;t know if there has ever been corruption in the US on the scale it exists today, The form is more subtle, not as crude as direct bribes of 100 or so years ago, but the amounts of public money involved are far greater.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there is some clear value in both carry-forwards and carry-backs.. probably both on a diminishing-value scale. They help stabilize business cycles.<br />
What rankles, however, about this one is that it was directly purchased after-the-fact from politicians. I don&#8217;t know if there has ever been corruption in the US on the scale it exists today, The form is more subtle, not as crude as direct bribes of 100 or so years ago, but the amounts of public money involved are far greater.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted K</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/11/16/economics-puzzler-of-the-day/#comment-34075</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5517#comment-34075</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I notice James has EconLog on the blogroll now.  Our little James is so impressionable.  The Yalies&#039; fetor is already starting to rub off.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I notice James has EconLog on the blogroll now.  Our little James is so impressionable.  The Yalies&#8217; fetor is already starting to rub off.</p>
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