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	<title>Comments on: How Big?</title>
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	<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/28/how-big/</link>
	<description>What happened to the global economy and what we can do about it</description>
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		<title>By: cityislander</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/28/how-big/#comment-32492</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cityislander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 17:25:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5337#comment-32492</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oliver Wyman : Big Financial Firms May Be Riskier Than They Appear

http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=2259]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oliver Wyman : Big Financial Firms May Be Riskier Than They Appear</p>
<p><a href="http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=2259" rel="nofollow">http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=2259</a></p>
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		<title>By: Silke</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/28/how-big/#comment-32477</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Silke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 12:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5337#comment-32477</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[hi Dan,
and here is a story about non-mom-and-pop regulation in action which I like because I claim accountants would have looked at accounts and not tried to find hidden conspirational stuff (the good ones I knew exasparatingly for us &quot;normals&quot; lacked interest in imagining things)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/31/business/31sec.html?_r=1&amp;th&amp;emc=th
the accountants I knew were to single-minded to go for conspiracy mania - no figures to be had there ...
I&#039;ll probably stay away for at least quite a while, so for now I wanted to wish you all the best and that you&#039;ll manage to hone the description of your knowledge about accounting in a way that I even I can get it. Something stinks in that department and it is more than my psycho-centered look at it can catch.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hi Dan,<br />
and here is a story about non-mom-and-pop regulation in action which I like because I claim accountants would have looked at accounts and not tried to find hidden conspirational stuff (the good ones I knew exasparatingly for us &#8220;normals&#8221; lacked interest in imagining things)<br />
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/31/business/31sec.html?_r=1&#038;th&#038;emc=th" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/31/business/31sec.html?_r=1&#038;th&#038;emc=th</a><br />
the accountants I knew were to single-minded to go for conspiracy mania &#8211; no figures to be had there &#8230;<br />
I&#8217;ll probably stay away for at least quite a while, so for now I wanted to wish you all the best and that you&#8217;ll manage to hone the description of your knowledge about accounting in a way that I even I can get it. Something stinks in that department and it is more than my psycho-centered look at it can catch.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/28/how-big/#comment-32434</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 14:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5337#comment-32434</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Derivatives were created to hedge risks and protect equity but became a major source of revenue for firms (and bonuses for employees) and in the course of transformation from a balance sheet related hedge transaction to a P&amp;L profit center, began and contiue to present balance sheet risk and systemic risk.  

Register them or ban them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derivatives were created to hedge risks and protect equity but became a major source of revenue for firms (and bonuses for employees) and in the course of transformation from a balance sheet related hedge transaction to a P&amp;L profit center, began and contiue to present balance sheet risk and systemic risk.  </p>
<p>Register them or ban them.</p>
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		<title>By: Ashwin</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/28/how-big/#comment-32419</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ashwin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:21:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5337#comment-32419</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[They reduce the cost of money in terms of interest payable (in the end). A clap requires two hands- irresponsible lending requires irresponsible borrowers to succeed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They reduce the cost of money in terms of interest payable (in the end). A clap requires two hands- irresponsible lending requires irresponsible borrowers to succeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Ashwin</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/28/how-big/#comment-32418</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ashwin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5337#comment-32418</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@notabanker Really appreciate your in depth and insightful response. 

Yes I was perhaps over simplifying things here and there and although I might lack the knowledge and exposure for an in depth analysis, this is what I think:

I&#039;m quite sure that you&#039;re well aware of the case of AIG when it had stopped its trade in CDS. They were insuring dangerously toxic assets which went against the basic fabric of the system. Only a 5-10 percent of subprime loans were to be insured but by the end, they had an aweful amount of exposure and apparently very few people even inside the org knew of this! 

And when I said &#039;big firms did not know to manage risks properly, its solely because they didn’t understand the concept and the depth of risk such instruments carried’ I MEANT they didn&#039;t understand what was going on let alone manage it.

We also cannot discount the roles of the rating agencies which, again grossly oversimplified the co relationing between scenarios which led to a lot of unworthy securities being passed off as AAA.

Please also keep in mind that the thin red line separating the wall st and the gov is often faded. Both are dependant on each other for their survival. And although you&#039;re very correct on TBTF, I don&#039;t think anything plausible would be done atleast in the US. ING was broken up by the EU but do you think, Tim would take steps to break up Citi? I think not. 

As I mentioned earlier, every war has its casualities. Does the onus lie solely on the lender? I&#039;m not sure although this might qualify for a chicken and egg paradox. I do remember reading that &#039;What&#039;s good for Wall St. isn&#039;t good for the country.&#039; Maybe, but I don&#039;t think anything can be changed now as they&#039;re back with a bang and they&#039;re back in full force!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@notabanker Really appreciate your in depth and insightful response. </p>
<p>Yes I was perhaps over simplifying things here and there and although I might lack the knowledge and exposure for an in depth analysis, this is what I think:</p>
<p>I&#8217;m quite sure that you&#8217;re well aware of the case of AIG when it had stopped its trade in CDS. They were insuring dangerously toxic assets which went against the basic fabric of the system. Only a 5-10 percent of subprime loans were to be insured but by the end, they had an aweful amount of exposure and apparently very few people even inside the org knew of this! </p>
<p>And when I said &#8216;big firms did not know to manage risks properly, its solely because they didn’t understand the concept and the depth of risk such instruments carried’ I MEANT they didn&#8217;t understand what was going on let alone manage it.</p>
<p>We also cannot discount the roles of the rating agencies which, again grossly oversimplified the co relationing between scenarios which led to a lot of unworthy securities being passed off as AAA.</p>
<p>Please also keep in mind that the thin red line separating the wall st and the gov is often faded. Both are dependant on each other for their survival. And although you&#8217;re very correct on TBTF, I don&#8217;t think anything plausible would be done atleast in the US. ING was broken up by the EU but do you think, Tim would take steps to break up Citi? I think not. </p>
<p>As I mentioned earlier, every war has its casualities. Does the onus lie solely on the lender? I&#8217;m not sure although this might qualify for a chicken and egg paradox. I do remember reading that &#8216;What&#8217;s good for Wall St. isn&#8217;t good for the country.&#8217; Maybe, but I don&#8217;t think anything can be changed now as they&#8217;re back with a bang and they&#8217;re back in full force!</p>
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		<title>By: Sid</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/28/how-big/#comment-32416</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sid]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5337#comment-32416</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[*How* exactly did derivatives make homes more affordable? 

After all, pelnty of people owned homes in the Dark Ages before securitization took root, and home prices were much more reasonable then relative to median incomes, probably because a lot less (borrowed) money was chasing property.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*How* exactly did derivatives make homes more affordable? </p>
<p>After all, pelnty of people owned homes in the Dark Ages before securitization took root, and home prices were much more reasonable then relative to median incomes, probably because a lot less (borrowed) money was chasing property.</p>
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		<title>By: notabanker</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/28/how-big/#comment-32415</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[notabanker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 10:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5337#comment-32415</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for your post Ashwin.  I am keen to learn what folk believe are the real problems.  Am I to understand that &#039;The current fiasco is not because big firms did not know to manage risks properly, its solely because they didn’t understand the concept and the depth of risk such instruments carried&#039;? I presume you have some substantiating evidence in mind on which this is thought is based?  

Would you mind expanding on:
1. how this evolved and the reasons a lot of allegedly intelligent  folk became and remained oblivious of the concept and depth of risk or prudent management of the risk?
2. what were the missing elements on both sides of he trading equation?
3. what precisely were the missing controls (if any)?
4. what are the fixes required to better manage the derivative risk trading products from this point?
5. what is the required process to rerail the concept and depth risk train?
6.What process do you envisage is the best cleanup process? 
7.what should be done to ensure  our community is shielded while the reckless, imprudent few &#039;crash in a corner&#039;?

I note your dismissal of TBTF, however with no supporting data, it seems like another summary opinion, which you have a perfect right to express but others  may remain unconvinced.  If TBTF is not really a problem, presumably you see some TBTF scale benefits which exceed the costs for our community?
Now exactly to what extent is scaling up an advantage?  Who receives the advantage fruit?  I note a recent video clip where the GS CEO Mr. Blankfein commented on the success GS was having and his duty only to his stockholders.  Good stuff (for GS and the deil take the hindmost?), but if there are no ethical principles or regulations reasonably managing untrameled exploitation, we have a situation which the community may well be damaged?

If the sky is the limit, please comment on how you see the counterparties prosper?  A sustainable business is presumably where both parties receive a  benefit.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your post Ashwin.  I am keen to learn what folk believe are the real problems.  Am I to understand that &#8216;The current fiasco is not because big firms did not know to manage risks properly, its solely because they didn’t understand the concept and the depth of risk such instruments carried&#8217;? I presume you have some substantiating evidence in mind on which this is thought is based?  </p>
<p>Would you mind expanding on:<br />
1. how this evolved and the reasons a lot of allegedly intelligent  folk became and remained oblivious of the concept and depth of risk or prudent management of the risk?<br />
2. what were the missing elements on both sides of he trading equation?<br />
3. what precisely were the missing controls (if any)?<br />
4. what are the fixes required to better manage the derivative risk trading products from this point?<br />
5. what is the required process to rerail the concept and depth risk train?<br />
6.What process do you envisage is the best cleanup process?<br />
7.what should be done to ensure  our community is shielded while the reckless, imprudent few &#8216;crash in a corner&#8217;?</p>
<p>I note your dismissal of TBTF, however with no supporting data, it seems like another summary opinion, which you have a perfect right to express but others  may remain unconvinced.  If TBTF is not really a problem, presumably you see some TBTF scale benefits which exceed the costs for our community?<br />
Now exactly to what extent is scaling up an advantage?  Who receives the advantage fruit?  I note a recent video clip where the GS CEO Mr. Blankfein commented on the success GS was having and his duty only to his stockholders.  Good stuff (for GS and the deil take the hindmost?), but if there are no ethical principles or regulations reasonably managing untrameled exploitation, we have a situation which the community may well be damaged?</p>
<p>If the sky is the limit, please comment on how you see the counterparties prosper?  A sustainable business is presumably where both parties receive a  benefit.</p>
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		<title>By: Ashwin</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/28/how-big/#comment-32409</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ashwin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 04:32:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5337#comment-32409</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Derivatives are a necessary evil. If you look back, you would probably understand that derivatives did a brilliant job in keeping the cost of money low enough for many to afford homes. Derivatives also ensured that everyone benefits. 

The current fiasco is not because big firms did not know to manage risks properly, its solely because they didn&#039;t understand the concept and the depth of risk such instruments carried. I would like to quote the example of Goldman when it comes to having an intricate knowledge about the concept of risk in whatever they deal with. 

And finally, James, lets just put the argument of too big to fail aside for a while. Yes, we do concede that too big to fail has been the limelight of all the Fed&#039;s action plans. But looks like every second post of yours, focuses on too big to fail. It just gets too boring and monotonous after a while! Yes, we DO get the idea but I&#039;m not too sure if THAT&#039;s the ONLY thing we need to crib about.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derivatives are a necessary evil. If you look back, you would probably understand that derivatives did a brilliant job in keeping the cost of money low enough for many to afford homes. Derivatives also ensured that everyone benefits. </p>
<p>The current fiasco is not because big firms did not know to manage risks properly, its solely because they didn&#8217;t understand the concept and the depth of risk such instruments carried. I would like to quote the example of Goldman when it comes to having an intricate knowledge about the concept of risk in whatever they deal with. </p>
<p>And finally, James, lets just put the argument of too big to fail aside for a while. Yes, we do concede that too big to fail has been the limelight of all the Fed&#8217;s action plans. But looks like every second post of yours, focuses on too big to fail. It just gets too boring and monotonous after a while! Yes, we DO get the idea but I&#8217;m not too sure if THAT&#8217;s the ONLY thing we need to crib about.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel Johnson</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/28/how-big/#comment-32380</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel Johnson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5337#comment-32380</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The real one who is too big, is the Fed, that pumped out all the funny money that got us into this problem.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real one who is too big, is the Fed, that pumped out all the funny money that got us into this problem.</p>
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		<title>By: MPH</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/28/how-big/#comment-32356</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MPH]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5337#comment-32356</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Patrick- Wait, so if the price declines the tax turns negative and becomes a subsidy? Not to mention the fact that using continuous time calculus here to calculate a tax on discrete time contracts is nonsense. But I&#039;m a mathematician so I am nit-picking here. I do agree that regardless of the complexity of the derivative it should be taxable. Assuming none of the parties go bankrupt (big assumption) money will need to change hands in a zero-sum (well, constant negative sum, given the loss to fees in some cases) manner, and thus a party should come out ahead, and should be taxed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Patrick- Wait, so if the price declines the tax turns negative and becomes a subsidy? Not to mention the fact that using continuous time calculus here to calculate a tax on discrete time contracts is nonsense. But I&#8217;m a mathematician so I am nit-picking here. I do agree that regardless of the complexity of the derivative it should be taxable. Assuming none of the parties go bankrupt (big assumption) money will need to change hands in a zero-sum (well, constant negative sum, given the loss to fees in some cases) manner, and thus a party should come out ahead, and should be taxed.</p>
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		<title>By: M.G. in Progress</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/28/how-big/#comment-32351</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M.G. in Progress]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5337#comment-32351</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very good. And the 1% tax, which actually is a Tobin Tax, would do no harm. Europeans should apply the same. On the other hand Brazil has just put a 2% tax on inflow investments in securities.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good. And the 1% tax, which actually is a Tobin Tax, would do no harm. Europeans should apply the same. On the other hand Brazil has just put a 2% tax on inflow investments in securities.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/28/how-big/#comment-32348</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5337#comment-32348</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good Point Jessica, there really is no good argument for big banks. They provide no public benefit and serve no need. As you noted, securities firms can provide the necessary IPO and securitization services. 

Securitization of loans did help provide necessary funds to   the market. However, multiple hedge derivative bets against those securities did not and do  not provide the  public any benefit. I can see value for one and only one hedge being placed against a mortgage backed security, as insurance.  Multiple bets and claims against the same mortgage, particularly one sliced and diced and wrapped in a pool with hundreds of other mortgages is just a fraudulent game.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good Point Jessica, there really is no good argument for big banks. They provide no public benefit and serve no need. As you noted, securities firms can provide the necessary IPO and securitization services. </p>
<p>Securitization of loans did help provide necessary funds to   the market. However, multiple hedge derivative bets against those securities did not and do  not provide the  public any benefit. I can see value for one and only one hedge being placed against a mortgage backed security, as insurance.  Multiple bets and claims against the same mortgage, particularly one sliced and diced and wrapped in a pool with hundreds of other mortgages is just a fraudulent game.</p>
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		<title>By: Eagle</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/28/how-big/#comment-32345</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eagle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5337#comment-32345</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Futures are a form of derivative that trade on an exchange.  OTC derivatives are custom contracts that do not trade on an exchange.  My point was to give a real world example of a useful derivative to the people who did not see the need for them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Futures are a form of derivative that trade on an exchange.  OTC derivatives are custom contracts that do not trade on an exchange.  My point was to give a real world example of a useful derivative to the people who did not see the need for them.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: hermanas</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/28/how-big/#comment-32330</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[hermanas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5337#comment-32330</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Game;
Company Store economy,(GS).
Property; (U.S.)
Feild Manager; Politician
Feildhand; Non Government Personel
Operation; Musical Chairs.
 The slow to appreciate this game will soon loose their seat. 
The rest get a boost.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Game;<br />
Company Store economy,(GS).<br />
Property; (U.S.)<br />
Feild Manager; Politician<br />
Feildhand; Non Government Personel<br />
Operation; Musical Chairs.<br />
 The slow to appreciate this game will soon loose their seat.<br />
The rest get a boost.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bayard</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/10/28/how-big/#comment-32327</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bayard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 09:36:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5337#comment-32327</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[First, it seems that Goldman Sachs and the other mega buck banks need lots and lots of assets to support their out-of-kilter bonuses, and so they also need the OTC deriviatives and other risk inducing holdings to assure their churning fees to support the accumulation of greater and greater fees and charges.

They are like heroine addicts (and others) who develop high tolerances for risk to support their (unsustainable) habits.  Big is good for them, and can be (and maybe will be) disasterous for those who just want to earn a reasonable living without worry.

I prefer to think that the reformed Alan Greenspan and Paul Volker know that the bigness is very dangerous to our fiscal health.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, it seems that Goldman Sachs and the other mega buck banks need lots and lots of assets to support their out-of-kilter bonuses, and so they also need the OTC deriviatives and other risk inducing holdings to assure their churning fees to support the accumulation of greater and greater fees and charges.</p>
<p>They are like heroine addicts (and others) who develop high tolerances for risk to support their (unsustainable) habits.  Big is good for them, and can be (and maybe will be) disasterous for those who just want to earn a reasonable living without worry.</p>
<p>I prefer to think that the reformed Alan Greenspan and Paul Volker know that the bigness is very dangerous to our fiscal health.</p>
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