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	<title>Comments on: Just Baffling</title>
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	<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/24/just-baffling/</link>
	<description>What happened to the global economy and what we can do about it</description>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/24/just-baffling/#comment-29003</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 01:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5063#comment-29003</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[the &quot;sale&quot; proceeds go to the DIF.  Sorry it&#039;s Friday.  I was day dreaming.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the &#8220;sale&#8221; proceeds go to the DIF.  Sorry it&#8217;s Friday.  I was day dreaming.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/24/just-baffling/#comment-29002</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 00:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5063#comment-29002</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The FDIC needs cash.  The proceeds of the sail go to the DIF.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The FDIC needs cash.  The proceeds of the sail go to the DIF.</p>
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		<title>By: Bayard</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/24/just-baffling/#comment-28951</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bayard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 05:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5063#comment-28951</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, this is truly baffling.  It is a financial non-sequitor.  But, lacks the same level of absurdity as the B of A fiasco.  Why not support the private sector against tax payers.  Let&#039;s face it, that&#039;s what Treasury (and Congress) has been doing ever since last September (and, if fact, for our entire history, but that&#039;s another story).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, this is truly baffling.  It is a financial non-sequitor.  But, lacks the same level of absurdity as the B of A fiasco.  Why not support the private sector against tax payers.  Let&#8217;s face it, that&#8217;s what Treasury (and Congress) has been doing ever since last September (and, if fact, for our entire history, but that&#8217;s another story).</p>
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		<title>By: Bond Girl</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/24/just-baffling/#comment-28945</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bond Girl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 03:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5063#comment-28945</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And why would anyone take the FDIC out of its position anyway?  Apart from the guarantee, they already know the assets are overvalued.  Think about it this way: Residential Capital was willing to take the risk because all it stands to lose is the $64 million.  The rest the &quot;venture&quot; is stuck with.  It walks away.  Whoever takes the FDIC out on the financing would actually be stuck with the loss.  Hence the guarantee.  If the loans underperform, the FDIC has just sold a Treasury note.

Or so it seems to me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And why would anyone take the FDIC out of its position anyway?  Apart from the guarantee, they already know the assets are overvalued.  Think about it this way: Residential Capital was willing to take the risk because all it stands to lose is the $64 million.  The rest the &#8220;venture&#8221; is stuck with.  It walks away.  Whoever takes the FDIC out on the financing would actually be stuck with the loss.  Hence the guarantee.  If the loans underperform, the FDIC has just sold a Treasury note.</p>
<p>Or so it seems to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Bond Girl</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/24/just-baffling/#comment-28943</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bond Girl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 02:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5063#comment-28943</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m sure Residential Credit will manage the assets, since it is a &quot;joint venture.&quot;  If they sell the note, the proceeds will only take them out of their original position, assuming the note is sold at par+.  FDIC is still stuck with the guarantee. 

This is a very bizarre arrangement.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure Residential Credit will manage the assets, since it is a &#8220;joint venture.&#8221;  If they sell the note, the proceeds will only take them out of their original position, assuming the note is sold at par+.  FDIC is still stuck with the guarantee. </p>
<p>This is a very bizarre arrangement.</p>
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		<title>By: q</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/24/just-baffling/#comment-28942</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[q]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 02:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5063#comment-28942</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[i looked at what&#039;s on the FDIC site (followed the link above) and it looks to me like:

-- the FDIC took an initial loss (they judged the assets to be worth less than the value at which they were held on Franklin&#039;s book) 

-- FDIC is going to try to sell their debt interest as a FDIC insured bond in the deal, probably to raise cash

so what the FDIC is going to end up with is

negatives:
-- a loss to the DIF fund due to the bank capsizing
-- a guarantee on the cash flows of the assets.  leverage was 6:1.

positives:
-- $64M equity
-- cash (about $800M, from the equity and bond sale), which they need

i couldn&#039;t tell from the materials on the site what interest FDIC is receiving on its loan (which it wants to sell with the guarantee) and what the assets pay when performing.

the quesiton of who is managing the assets is not answered.  in the original PPIP the external equity holders managed it.

if i were going to venture a guess, the way this deal is put together did not change the expected outcome much.  the FDIC gets cash now and limits its volatility somewhat going forward.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i looked at what&#8217;s on the FDIC site (followed the link above) and it looks to me like:</p>
<p>&#8211; the FDIC took an initial loss (they judged the assets to be worth less than the value at which they were held on Franklin&#8217;s book) </p>
<p>&#8211; FDIC is going to try to sell their debt interest as a FDIC insured bond in the deal, probably to raise cash</p>
<p>so what the FDIC is going to end up with is</p>
<p>negatives:<br />
&#8211; a loss to the DIF fund due to the bank capsizing<br />
&#8211; a guarantee on the cash flows of the assets.  leverage was 6:1.</p>
<p>positives:<br />
&#8211; $64M equity<br />
&#8211; cash (about $800M, from the equity and bond sale), which they need</p>
<p>i couldn&#8217;t tell from the materials on the site what interest FDIC is receiving on its loan (which it wants to sell with the guarantee) and what the assets pay when performing.</p>
<p>the quesiton of who is managing the assets is not answered.  in the original PPIP the external equity holders managed it.</p>
<p>if i were going to venture a guess, the way this deal is put together did not change the expected outcome much.  the FDIC gets cash now and limits its volatility somewhat going forward.</p>
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		<title>By: Bond Girl</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/24/just-baffling/#comment-28939</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bond Girl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 02:02:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5063#comment-28939</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[But they&#039;ll need that expertise to operate the PPIP too, presumably.  And they&#039;ll need it if they are going to sell the notes they are using to finance these sales.  

And they seem to have the financial strength to guarantee the notes, which I just do not understand at all.  The only way an entity purchasing the notes would want the guarantee is if the loans were not performing, so what does the FDIC get out of that?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But they&#8217;ll need that expertise to operate the PPIP too, presumably.  And they&#8217;ll need it if they are going to sell the notes they are using to finance these sales.  </p>
<p>And they seem to have the financial strength to guarantee the notes, which I just do not understand at all.  The only way an entity purchasing the notes would want the guarantee is if the loans were not performing, so what does the FDIC get out of that?</p>
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		<title>By: q</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/24/just-baffling/#comment-28936</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[q]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 01:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5063#comment-28936</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[also, if you are saying that the FDIC could have kept the assets because they might appreciate in the future, i would have a couple follow up questions.  

first, doesn&#039;t the FDIC need cash right now?  they are talking about borrowing from the treasury or from other banks, so I believe they do.  

second, if the FDIC were going to get into the business of holding assets, wouldn&#039;t that mean they need a trading operation?  (they would need to analyze them, know when they had appreciated sufficiently, etc -- holding to maturity is probably not a good idea given their need for cash liquidity.) 

third, can the FDIC realistically manage these assets?  that&#039;s not what it generally does.  there are probably a lot of really crappy assets on Franklin&#039;s books, and a lot of value in them is probably going to come from active management (ie the assets probably consist of claims on bankrupt business entities and households -- you can&#039;t just wait for the dollars to pour in, you have to show up in court and twist arms.  the FDIC is going to be pretty bad at that.).

and fourth, if the FDIC were going to get into the business of holding assets, why these particular assets?  just because these were the ones that were dumped on them?  seems a bit arbitrary.

so to sew it up, i don&#039;t think that holding a lot of distressed assets for a long time is a good idea for the FDIC.  i&#039;m not 100% sold on the PPIP idea (haven&#039;t read the details) but it does solve FDIC&#039;s problem.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>also, if you are saying that the FDIC could have kept the assets because they might appreciate in the future, i would have a couple follow up questions.  </p>
<p>first, doesn&#8217;t the FDIC need cash right now?  they are talking about borrowing from the treasury or from other banks, so I believe they do.  </p>
<p>second, if the FDIC were going to get into the business of holding assets, wouldn&#8217;t that mean they need a trading operation?  (they would need to analyze them, know when they had appreciated sufficiently, etc &#8212; holding to maturity is probably not a good idea given their need for cash liquidity.) </p>
<p>third, can the FDIC realistically manage these assets?  that&#8217;s not what it generally does.  there are probably a lot of really crappy assets on Franklin&#8217;s books, and a lot of value in them is probably going to come from active management (ie the assets probably consist of claims on bankrupt business entities and households &#8212; you can&#8217;t just wait for the dollars to pour in, you have to show up in court and twist arms.  the FDIC is going to be pretty bad at that.).</p>
<p>and fourth, if the FDIC were going to get into the business of holding assets, why these particular assets?  just because these were the ones that were dumped on them?  seems a bit arbitrary.</p>
<p>so to sew it up, i don&#8217;t think that holding a lot of distressed assets for a long time is a good idea for the FDIC.  i&#8217;m not 100% sold on the PPIP idea (haven&#8217;t read the details) but it does solve FDIC&#8217;s problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted K</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/24/just-baffling/#comment-28934</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 01:07:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5063#comment-28934</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m sure there are some aspects of this I&#039;m not catching.  But the immediate question that always enters my mind is: Why would the FDIC sell these assets at a time when economic activity is slow (where it is now) and hence the assets would fetch the lowest price???  Why not sit on the assets and sell them when they can fetch a much higher price?? 

I mean these smaller banks are still dropping like flies.  Is it a wise decision to sell off assets when you&#039;re still taking in banks for receivership from the same economic downturn???]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure there are some aspects of this I&#8217;m not catching.  But the immediate question that always enters my mind is: Why would the FDIC sell these assets at a time when economic activity is slow (where it is now) and hence the assets would fetch the lowest price???  Why not sit on the assets and sell them when they can fetch a much higher price?? </p>
<p>I mean these smaller banks are still dropping like flies.  Is it a wise decision to sell off assets when you&#8217;re still taking in banks for receivership from the same economic downturn???</p>
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		<title>By: The Raven</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/24/just-baffling/#comment-28932</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Raven]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 01:02:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5063#comment-28932</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Still waiting for 1932...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Still waiting for 1932&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: James Kwak</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/24/just-baffling/#comment-28929</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James Kwak]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 00:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5063#comment-28929</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In general when the FDIC takes someone over, they are left with the assets. So there are two alternatives: first a straight-up, unsubsidized auction, which would have fetched a lower price, but would have been free of the loan guarantee. Second, if (as everyone in Washington claims) these assets are bound to increase in price over time, the FDIC could have just held onto them and taken all of the appreciation itself.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In general when the FDIC takes someone over, they are left with the assets. So there are two alternatives: first a straight-up, unsubsidized auction, which would have fetched a lower price, but would have been free of the loan guarantee. Second, if (as everyone in Washington claims) these assets are bound to increase in price over time, the FDIC could have just held onto them and taken all of the appreciation itself.</p>
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		<title>By: q</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/24/just-baffling/#comment-28926</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[q]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 23:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5063#comment-28926</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[what was the alternative here?  if the fdic had liquidated franklin, how much would they have been on the hook for?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what was the alternative here?  if the fdic had liquidated franklin, how much would they have been on the hook for?</p>
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		<title>By: TonyForesta</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/24/just-baffling/#comment-28924</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TonyForesta]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:20:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5063#comment-28924</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s like we&#039;re in a toxic feedback loop.  Everyone knows that the socalled TBTF banks, their managements, and their models have in fact FAILED miserably.   Everyone knows the TBTF insitutions are mathmetically and legally unsound.  Everyone knows their conduct and practices before the crisis and now are criminal, fraudulent, deceptive, predatory, and fundamentally immoral benefitting the predatorclass exclusively and singularly and causing severe injury to their respective societies.  Everyone knows that these socalled TBTF banks and perhaps the entire financial system are malignant cancers, providing NO worthy benefit to society, and ruthlessly feeding of the blood of the people.  Everyone knows the TBTF insitutions and the underlying systems have NOT changed in any meaningful way.  Everyone knows the shaitans and shades in the TBTF institutions operate above and beyond the law, ownd and control the government and the regulatory apparatus, and are totally dependent of the unending protection of, and monsterous taxpayer funded largess from the government teet.  

And sadly everyone knows that sometime in the unknown unknown future (probably soon) another horrible bubble will burst, economies will be brought to the brink of disaster if not total collapse (nexttime), and when that horrorshow happens, these same shaitans, criminals, and PONZI operators will come crying and begging like little school girls for trillions more in taxpayer funded bailouts.

What we don&#039;t know is - what will happen when the people finally realize these fiends are monsters threatening our lives, our childrens futures, - and that until and unless the TBTF insitutions, their FAILED managements, and their FAILED models are dismantled, and brought to heal, and whatever remains of that nebulous thing called justice.  When day comes, (and the sooner the better of the other 99.5% of the earths population), - all bets are off, and predatorclass be the targets of a real horrorshow backlash.   I do not condone a revolution, - but I see it as inevitable based on the current baselinescenario.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s like we&#8217;re in a toxic feedback loop.  Everyone knows that the socalled TBTF banks, their managements, and their models have in fact FAILED miserably.   Everyone knows the TBTF insitutions are mathmetically and legally unsound.  Everyone knows their conduct and practices before the crisis and now are criminal, fraudulent, deceptive, predatory, and fundamentally immoral benefitting the predatorclass exclusively and singularly and causing severe injury to their respective societies.  Everyone knows that these socalled TBTF banks and perhaps the entire financial system are malignant cancers, providing NO worthy benefit to society, and ruthlessly feeding of the blood of the people.  Everyone knows the TBTF insitutions and the underlying systems have NOT changed in any meaningful way.  Everyone knows the shaitans and shades in the TBTF institutions operate above and beyond the law, ownd and control the government and the regulatory apparatus, and are totally dependent of the unending protection of, and monsterous taxpayer funded largess from the government teet.  </p>
<p>And sadly everyone knows that sometime in the unknown unknown future (probably soon) another horrible bubble will burst, economies will be brought to the brink of disaster if not total collapse (nexttime), and when that horrorshow happens, these same shaitans, criminals, and PONZI operators will come crying and begging like little school girls for trillions more in taxpayer funded bailouts.</p>
<p>What we don&#8217;t know is &#8211; what will happen when the people finally realize these fiends are monsters threatening our lives, our childrens futures, &#8211; and that until and unless the TBTF insitutions, their FAILED managements, and their FAILED models are dismantled, and brought to heal, and whatever remains of that nebulous thing called justice.  When day comes, (and the sooner the better of the other 99.5% of the earths population), &#8211; all bets are off, and predatorclass be the targets of a real horrorshow backlash.   I do not condone a revolution, &#8211; but I see it as inevitable based on the current baselinescenario.</p>
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		<title>By: Linus Wilson</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/24/just-baffling/#comment-28922</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Linus Wilson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:57:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5063#comment-28922</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Financeguy, I agree that the PPIP structure muddles the true market value of the toxic assets.  In the pilot case I argue in &quot;Slicing the Toxic Pizza&quot; the price inflation was over 20 percent.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Financeguy, I agree that the PPIP structure muddles the true market value of the toxic assets.  In the pilot case I argue in &#8220;Slicing the Toxic Pizza&#8221; the price inflation was over 20 percent.</p>
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		<title>By: Min</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/09/24/just-baffling/#comment-28921</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Min]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:57:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=5063#comment-28921</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[financeguy: &quot;You can get a truer sense of market price (one of the PPIP purported goals right?) when the FDIC goes through its normal auction process for the assets, bcz using PPIP instead just muddies everything up with this “subsidy” question — is it 2% or 10% or what?&quot;

Bingo! Who wants a true market price right now?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>financeguy: &#8220;You can get a truer sense of market price (one of the PPIP purported goals right?) when the FDIC goes through its normal auction process for the assets, bcz using PPIP instead just muddies everything up with this “subsidy” question — is it 2% or 10% or what?&#8221;</p>
<p>Bingo! Who wants a true market price right now?</p>
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