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	<title>Comments on: How Much Does the Financial Sector Cost?</title>
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	<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/27/how-much-does-the-financial-sector-cost/</link>
	<description>What happened to the global economy and what we can do about it</description>
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		<title>By: jake chase</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/27/how-much-does-the-financial-sector-cost/#comment-25788</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jake chase]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 00:27:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4835#comment-25788</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Economics fails to answer satisfactorily the simplest question because it takes as a given that anything countable is an equivalent of anything else. Economics views increased profits as better regardless of how they are extracted and how they are distributed; growth is sold as the answer to every social dilemma. What the recent disaster has proved is the utter poverty of growth economics, that it is an academic scam and a political scam. Any instititutionalist could see the crisis coming. Veblen explained the essential problem more than one hundred years ago. Anyone interested should read the Theory of Business Enterprise. It is roughly 100 pages long (small print, I admit)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Economics fails to answer satisfactorily the simplest question because it takes as a given that anything countable is an equivalent of anything else. Economics views increased profits as better regardless of how they are extracted and how they are distributed; growth is sold as the answer to every social dilemma. What the recent disaster has proved is the utter poverty of growth economics, that it is an academic scam and a political scam. Any instititutionalist could see the crisis coming. Veblen explained the essential problem more than one hundred years ago. Anyone interested should read the Theory of Business Enterprise. It is roughly 100 pages long (small print, I admit)</p>
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		<title>By: cityislander</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/27/how-much-does-the-financial-sector-cost/#comment-25720</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cityislander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 17:37:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4835#comment-25720</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[PS: This was already discussed on this blog. It couldn&#039;t be phrased more clearly than this:

&lt;b&gt; The Department of Justice’s Antitrust Division should be called in to investigate the increasing market share of major banks, the anti-competitive practices of some market leaders , and the broader increase in economic and political power of the biggest financial services players over the past 20 years and the last 6 months &lt;/b&gt; – this is potentially damaging to all consumers and, obviously, to all taxpayers.

http://baselinescenario.com/2009/04/16/bring-in-the-antitrust-division-on-banking/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS: This was already discussed on this blog. It couldn&#8217;t be phrased more clearly than this:</p>
<p><b> The Department of Justice’s Antitrust Division should be called in to investigate the increasing market share of major banks, the anti-competitive practices of some market leaders , and the broader increase in economic and political power of the biggest financial services players over the past 20 years and the last 6 months </b> – this is potentially damaging to all consumers and, obviously, to all taxpayers.</p>
<p><a href="http://baselinescenario.com/2009/04/16/bring-in-the-antitrust-division-on-banking/" rel="nofollow">http://baselinescenario.com/2009/04/16/bring-in-the-antitrust-division-on-banking/</a></p>
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		<title>By: cityislander</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/27/how-much-does-the-financial-sector-cost/#comment-25719</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cityislander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 17:33:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4835#comment-25719</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your emphasis on transaction fees seems eerily out of touch with the multiple $trillion financial mess that is plaguing the people of this country for years to come. 

You would think that perhaps &quot;too big too fail&quot; has something to do with this mess, and that &quot;too big&quot; is another way of saying &quot;excessively concentrated&quot;.

Now, if antitrust is not supposed to constrain a market&#039;s concentration, then I don&#039;t know why the word antitrust even exists.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your emphasis on transaction fees seems eerily out of touch with the multiple $trillion financial mess that is plaguing the people of this country for years to come. </p>
<p>You would think that perhaps &#8220;too big too fail&#8221; has something to do with this mess, and that &#8220;too big&#8221; is another way of saying &#8220;excessively concentrated&#8221;.</p>
<p>Now, if antitrust is not supposed to constrain a market&#8217;s concentration, then I don&#8217;t know why the word antitrust even exists.</p>
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		<title>By: Scot Griffin</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/27/how-much-does-the-financial-sector-cost/#comment-25711</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scot Griffin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 16:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4835#comment-25711</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@cityislander,

I have no idea what you know or don&#039;t know.  All I know is that, in my experience, I do not see how antitrust applies.  But I&#039;m no expert on the topic (I&#039;ve dealt with only a couple of narrow issues in the area), so I was hoping that the people who were advocating bringing antitrust laws to bear would be able to explain how it might apply.

FYI -- I agree that the whole industry routinely rooks its customers with nonsense transaction fees, but I think that remedying that situation is a matter of consumer protection and not antitrust.  I do not believe that financial institutions charge these fees because of how big they are (even the smallest players charge these fees) or because of any conspiracy among them.  Rather, they charge these fees because they can, and consumers pay the fees because they feel they must.  To me, this is an issue of unequal bargaining power best remedied through new regulations and/or better enforcement of the regulations we already have.  

From my limited exeprience, antitrust laws are most concerned with competition within the industry and not at all with protecting the consumer.  That is, antitrust focuses on undue market power, not undue bargaining power.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@cityislander,</p>
<p>I have no idea what you know or don&#8217;t know.  All I know is that, in my experience, I do not see how antitrust applies.  But I&#8217;m no expert on the topic (I&#8217;ve dealt with only a couple of narrow issues in the area), so I was hoping that the people who were advocating bringing antitrust laws to bear would be able to explain how it might apply.</p>
<p>FYI &#8212; I agree that the whole industry routinely rooks its customers with nonsense transaction fees, but I think that remedying that situation is a matter of consumer protection and not antitrust.  I do not believe that financial institutions charge these fees because of how big they are (even the smallest players charge these fees) or because of any conspiracy among them.  Rather, they charge these fees because they can, and consumers pay the fees because they feel they must.  To me, this is an issue of unequal bargaining power best remedied through new regulations and/or better enforcement of the regulations we already have.  </p>
<p>From my limited exeprience, antitrust laws are most concerned with competition within the industry and not at all with protecting the consumer.  That is, antitrust focuses on undue market power, not undue bargaining power.</p>
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		<title>By: Scot Griffin</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/27/how-much-does-the-financial-sector-cost/#comment-25706</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scot Griffin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 16:27:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4835#comment-25706</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, well.  I guess being lighthearted in writing is impossible, even with little smiley-faces dropped in as cues to indicate humor.  Apologies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, well.  I guess being lighthearted in writing is impossible, even with little smiley-faces dropped in as cues to indicate humor.  Apologies.</p>
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		<title>By: cityislander</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/27/how-much-does-the-financial-sector-cost/#comment-25699</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cityislander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 15:48:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4835#comment-25699</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You&#039;re either self centered or over-estimates other readers availability by thinking it is a case of ADD that I take the time to outline an interesting point in your comments.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re either self centered or over-estimates other readers availability by thinking it is a case of ADD that I take the time to outline an interesting point in your comments.</p>
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		<title>By: cityislander</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/27/how-much-does-the-financial-sector-cost/#comment-25698</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cityislander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 15:45:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4835#comment-25698</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Scot Griffin. 

If you&#039;ve litigated it, wouldn&#039;t be reasonable to assume you know more than us (at least me)?

When an industry is able to cut for itself such immense privileges, including escaping fraud supervision (see link), there is a case for breaking these mammoths into smaller pieces or finding other ways to put a dam between them an congress ($450million in contributions in 2008 vs $17millions for the auto industry).

The Tobin tax, regulating trader compensation etc. all seem like beating around the bush to me.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Scot Griffin. </p>
<p>If you&#8217;ve litigated it, wouldn&#8217;t be reasonable to assume you know more than us (at least me)?</p>
<p>When an industry is able to cut for itself such immense privileges, including escaping fraud supervision (see link), there is a case for breaking these mammoths into smaller pieces or finding other ways to put a dam between them an congress ($450million in contributions in 2008 vs $17millions for the auto industry).</p>
<p>The Tobin tax, regulating trader compensation etc. all seem like beating around the bush to me.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Yakkis</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/27/how-much-does-the-financial-sector-cost/#comment-25684</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Yakkis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 14:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4835#comment-25684</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here is what I know about who wins in Antitrust:

Big company breaking up cartel of smaller competitors: win
Smaller companies breaking up cartel of bigger competitors: loss
Domestic company breaking up cartel of foreign competitors: win
Foreign companies breakig up cartel of domestic companies: loss
Government breaking up a cartel: loss
Government stopping mergers to form monopolies: capture]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is what I know about who wins in Antitrust:</p>
<p>Big company breaking up cartel of smaller competitors: win<br />
Smaller companies breaking up cartel of bigger competitors: loss<br />
Domestic company breaking up cartel of foreign competitors: win<br />
Foreign companies breakig up cartel of domestic companies: loss<br />
Government breaking up a cartel: loss<br />
Government stopping mergers to form monopolies: capture</p>
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		<title>By: Scot Griffin</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/27/how-much-does-the-financial-sector-cost/#comment-25667</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scot Griffin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 03:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4835#comment-25667</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@cityislander and Frank T,

How much do you guys know about antitrust?  I&#039;ve studied the issue and litigated it a few times, and I&#039;m trying to understand how antitrust law can be brought to bear on transaction fees.  Still, I&#039;m not an expert by any means. I look forward to your thoughts.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@cityislander and Frank T,</p>
<p>How much do you guys know about antitrust?  I&#8217;ve studied the issue and litigated it a few times, and I&#8217;m trying to understand how antitrust law can be brought to bear on transaction fees.  Still, I&#8217;m not an expert by any means. I look forward to your thoughts.</p>
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		<title>By: Scot Griffin</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/27/how-much-does-the-financial-sector-cost/#comment-25665</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scot Griffin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 03:24:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4835#comment-25665</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@cityislander,

If you consider how much I said in that little screed, you&#039;d realize what I wrote WAS short.  :-)

Still, to be fair, I did not give myself the time to pare things back to make a single point.  There are at least three to five distinct points in that comment.

I do appreciate you overcoming your ADD long enough to find one of them, though.  :-)  I&#039;ll try harder next time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@cityislander,</p>
<p>If you consider how much I said in that little screed, you&#8217;d realize what I wrote WAS short.  :-)</p>
<p>Still, to be fair, I did not give myself the time to pare things back to make a single point.  There are at least three to five distinct points in that comment.</p>
<p>I do appreciate you overcoming your ADD long enough to find one of them, though.  :-)  I&#8217;ll try harder next time.</p>
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		<title>By: Hillbilly Daryl</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/27/how-much-does-the-financial-sector-cost/#comment-25637</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hillbilly Daryl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4835#comment-25637</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[1.01/101]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1.01/101</p>
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		<title>By: Hillbilly Daryl</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/27/how-much-does-the-financial-sector-cost/#comment-25636</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hillbilly Daryl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4835#comment-25636</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[APR calculated on 360 day year, compounded hourly.

You forget sight facilitation ambiant lighting surcharge $15]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>APR calculated on 360 day year, compounded hourly.</p>
<p>You forget sight facilitation ambiant lighting surcharge $15</p>
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		<title>By: cityislander</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/27/how-much-does-the-financial-sector-cost/#comment-25631</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cityislander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4835#comment-25631</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Frank T

&quot;Let’s make ANTITRUST part of the equation.&quot; &lt;b&gt; Exactly to the point &lt;/b&gt;. However, go tell that to Summers (and the $1bn trading loss that he left behind at Harvard).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Frank T</p>
<p>&#8220;Let’s make ANTITRUST part of the equation.&#8221; <b> Exactly to the point </b>. However, go tell that to Summers (and the $1bn trading loss that he left behind at Harvard).</p>
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		<title>By: Frank T.</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/27/how-much-does-the-financial-sector-cost/#comment-25621</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Frank T.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 16:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4835#comment-25621</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Most &quot;transaction fees&quot; are inflated because no one questions them.  Whenever I challenge a fee, it tends to go down or vanish.  The exception is the &quot;origination fee&quot; charged in mortgages -- most banks feel entitled to it, though they charge separate fees for many of the tasks involved and make a huge profit on the loan.  When times were good, &quot;origination fees,&quot; like real estate commissions, were industry standards and there was little competition.  Those days are gone, and all fees should be both transparent and subject to challenge.  No more of the &quot;New in Town Tax&quot; (like in the Robin Williams movie POPEYE).  Time to confront the &quot;costs&quot; of financial services.  If no service involved, then no fee.  Let&#039;s make ANTITRUST part of the equation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most &#8220;transaction fees&#8221; are inflated because no one questions them.  Whenever I challenge a fee, it tends to go down or vanish.  The exception is the &#8220;origination fee&#8221; charged in mortgages &#8212; most banks feel entitled to it, though they charge separate fees for many of the tasks involved and make a huge profit on the loan.  When times were good, &#8220;origination fees,&#8221; like real estate commissions, were industry standards and there was little competition.  Those days are gone, and all fees should be both transparent and subject to challenge.  No more of the &#8220;New in Town Tax&#8221; (like in the Robin Williams movie POPEYE).  Time to confront the &#8220;costs&#8221; of financial services.  If no service involved, then no fee.  Let&#8217;s make ANTITRUST part of the equation.</p>
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		<title>By: Silke</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/08/27/how-much-does-the-financial-sector-cost/#comment-25619</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Silke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 16:38:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4835#comment-25619</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;what other growth opportunities could have been financed with those trillions of dollars wasted in the housing sector&quot;

maybe there is no other growth sector promising immediate profits for the investors 
- isn&#039;t there a story out there that there is a capacity to build 9 mio or was it bn cars a year but there are only buyers for only 6 mio or bn ?
- maybe that&#039;s a wide-spread thing, manufactured goods of all kinds having by all kinds of means (robots, outsourcing, just in time et al) become so cheap and so easily produced in huge masses that only by seducing people to discard beloved gadgets new ones can be pushed onto the consumer
if money is poured into infrastructure that&#039;s a common good but does it generate immediate satisfaction of profit-hunger?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;what other growth opportunities could have been financed with those trillions of dollars wasted in the housing sector&#8221;</p>
<p>maybe there is no other growth sector promising immediate profits for the investors<br />
- isn&#8217;t there a story out there that there is a capacity to build 9 mio or was it bn cars a year but there are only buyers for only 6 mio or bn ?<br />
- maybe that&#8217;s a wide-spread thing, manufactured goods of all kinds having by all kinds of means (robots, outsourcing, just in time et al) become so cheap and so easily produced in huge masses that only by seducing people to discard beloved gadgets new ones can be pushed onto the consumer<br />
if money is poured into infrastructure that&#8217;s a common good but does it generate immediate satisfaction of profit-hunger?</p>
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