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	<title>Comments on: CIT Battlelines</title>
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	<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/15/cit-battlelines/</link>
	<description>What happened to the global economy and what we can do about it</description>
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		<title>By: Paul Handover</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/15/cit-battlelines/#comment-20220</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Handover]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:36:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4367#comment-20220</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My previous was not meant to suggest that pain isn&#039;t being felt already by huge numbers across the world.  But I have this terrible feeling in my water that what we have been through is nothing compared to what is ahead of us.  About the only upside of that would be that, this time, the banks will get their just &#039;rewards&#039;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My previous was not meant to suggest that pain isn&#8217;t being felt already by huge numbers across the world.  But I have this terrible feeling in my water that what we have been through is nothing compared to what is ahead of us.  About the only upside of that would be that, this time, the banks will get their just &#8216;rewards&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: bayardwaterbury</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/15/cit-battlelines/#comment-20192</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bayardwaterbury]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 05:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4367#comment-20192</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For me, it&#039;s not bailout fatigue.  I genuinely believe that this will provide the proper occasion for sending a new message to the market.  FDIC has allowed the failure of banks this large, and CIT isn&#039;t even a bank.  Nope, sorry, not this time, and hopefully not next time.

As I have said before: a little extreme pain right now, can prevent a never ending ache.  Let&#039;s get the major surgery over, have some therapy, and get on with our lives.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For me, it&#8217;s not bailout fatigue.  I genuinely believe that this will provide the proper occasion for sending a new message to the market.  FDIC has allowed the failure of banks this large, and CIT isn&#8217;t even a bank.  Nope, sorry, not this time, and hopefully not next time.</p>
<p>As I have said before: a little extreme pain right now, can prevent a never ending ache.  Let&#8217;s get the major surgery over, have some therapy, and get on with our lives.</p>
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		<title>By: Neville</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/15/cit-battlelines/#comment-20174</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Neville]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 04:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4367#comment-20174</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is degenerating into a farce... If $50 billion is now &#039;too big to fail&#039; then Bernie Madoff&#039;s investors missed the cut by only a few months!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is degenerating into a farce&#8230; If $50 billion is now &#8216;too big to fail&#8217; then Bernie Madoff&#8217;s investors missed the cut by only a few months!</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Handover</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/15/cit-battlelines/#comment-20155</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Handover]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 03:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4367#comment-20155</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The key phrase in your interesting comment is &quot;Properly regulated ...&quot;.
But howsoever things are changed with respect to regulation or systemic risk the reality is that any parachute that is deployed by the &#039;authorities&#039; will open too late to stop us hitting the ground.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The key phrase in your interesting comment is &#8220;Properly regulated &#8230;&#8221;.<br />
But howsoever things are changed with respect to regulation or systemic risk the reality is that any parachute that is deployed by the &#8216;authorities&#8217; will open too late to stop us hitting the ground.</p>
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		<title>By: Don the libertarian Democrat</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/15/cit-battlelines/#comment-20154</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don the libertarian Democrat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 02:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4367#comment-20154</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[“A failure of CIT would impact thousands of retailers and, consequently, the consumer spending that makes up two-thirds of our nation’s economy,” Tracy Mullin, the chief executive of the National Retail Federation, an industry group, wrote in a letter to the Treasury secretary, Timothy F. Geithner, earlier on Wednesday. “That cannot be allowed to happen at a time when retailers are already struggling to survive the national recession.”

It seems that the govt believes that Deflation has been defeated. I hope that they&#039;re correct.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“A failure of CIT would impact thousands of retailers and, consequently, the consumer spending that makes up two-thirds of our nation’s economy,” Tracy Mullin, the chief executive of the National Retail Federation, an industry group, wrote in a letter to the Treasury secretary, Timothy F. Geithner, earlier on Wednesday. “That cannot be allowed to happen at a time when retailers are already struggling to survive the national recession.”</p>
<p>It seems that the govt believes that Deflation has been defeated. I hope that they&#8217;re correct.</p>
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		<title>By: q</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/15/cit-battlelines/#comment-20152</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[q]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 02:44:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4367#comment-20152</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[looks like no bailout.

poof.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>looks like no bailout.</p>
<p>poof.</p>
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		<title>By: q</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/15/cit-battlelines/#comment-20144</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[q]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 01:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4367#comment-20144</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[don -- thanks for carrying the torch on this one.

here&#039;s another link, for the curious: http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/docs/meltzer/fisdeb33.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>don &#8212; thanks for carrying the torch on this one.</p>
<p>here&#8217;s another link, for the curious: <a href="http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/docs/meltzer/fisdeb33.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/docs/meltzer/fisdeb33.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Don the libertarian Democrat</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/15/cit-battlelines/#comment-20131</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don the libertarian Democrat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:32:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4367#comment-20131</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We are not going to get banking reform unless and until people realize what a Debt-Deflationary Spiral would do, and that we have just avoided one. Short of that, this will be seen as curable by normal means. 

If you do not think that such a possibility has just narrowly been averted, then I can understand not wanting the govt to intervene. But if you agree with me, you might well believe that we&#039;re not out of the woods yet.

I understand that many people might not get where I&#039;m coming from, so I&#039;m supplying a good link about Fisher:

http://www.economist.com/businessfinance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13104022]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are not going to get banking reform unless and until people realize what a Debt-Deflationary Spiral would do, and that we have just avoided one. Short of that, this will be seen as curable by normal means. </p>
<p>If you do not think that such a possibility has just narrowly been averted, then I can understand not wanting the govt to intervene. But if you agree with me, you might well believe that we&#8217;re not out of the woods yet.</p>
<p>I understand that many people might not get where I&#8217;m coming from, so I&#8217;m supplying a good link about Fisher:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.economist.com/businessfinance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13104022" rel="nofollow">http://www.economist.com/businessfinance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13104022</a></p>
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		<title>By: H Baskerville</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/15/cit-battlelines/#comment-20126</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[H Baskerville]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4367#comment-20126</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s true there isn&#039;t much downside political risk.  But I think the stockmarket comes into play here as much.  As the WSJ pointed out some months ago, the Fed and the Treasury look to the stock market as an indicator of public confidence.  They place more emphasis on it than we&#039;d like from such a questionable economic indicator.  With the first bailout, it wasn&#039;t until the market did another dip and people called their congressmen to complain about their stock funded retirement that both parties got on board.  Hard to sell bailouts when the stock market is going up.  When it goes down, nothing is off the table.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s true there isn&#8217;t much downside political risk.  But I think the stockmarket comes into play here as much.  As the WSJ pointed out some months ago, the Fed and the Treasury look to the stock market as an indicator of public confidence.  They place more emphasis on it than we&#8217;d like from such a questionable economic indicator.  With the first bailout, it wasn&#8217;t until the market did another dip and people called their congressmen to complain about their stock funded retirement that both parties got on board.  Hard to sell bailouts when the stock market is going up.  When it goes down, nothing is off the table.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/15/cit-battlelines/#comment-20116</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:58:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4367#comment-20116</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Any more grand government intrusion schemes into the market will only result in more fraud and market manipulation. 

In the 50&#039;s and 60&#039;s there were very bright lines of behavior, that people did not cross and as a result the regulatory system performed in a significantly  better way. What got us into this tragic mess is the wholesale fraudulent crony capitalism practiced by our regulators, our politicians and Wall Street. Any economic system based on fraud is bound to fail sooner or later. This is our regulatory system now; it just smoke and mirrors. This crony capitalism is new and  did not exist back then  to anywhere near the extent of today.

To create more government intrusion will only make matters worse.  Any cartel or government intrusion into the private sector is fraught with opportunities for market manipulation, unless  there are clear transparent rules that are enforced. We are a long way for transparent rules that are enforced. Those in power, particularly at the Fed  and Treasury,  now routinely violate the law, and are never held to account or brought to justice. 

 Add the fact that today&#039;s media, unlike the media of yesteryear are just the spin doctors for the fraud. They rarely report  the vast amount of  market manipulation, and regularly present a dishonest picture  to hide the manipulations of those in power.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any more grand government intrusion schemes into the market will only result in more fraud and market manipulation. </p>
<p>In the 50&#8242;s and 60&#8242;s there were very bright lines of behavior, that people did not cross and as a result the regulatory system performed in a significantly  better way. What got us into this tragic mess is the wholesale fraudulent crony capitalism practiced by our regulators, our politicians and Wall Street. Any economic system based on fraud is bound to fail sooner or later. This is our regulatory system now; it just smoke and mirrors. This crony capitalism is new and  did not exist back then  to anywhere near the extent of today.</p>
<p>To create more government intrusion will only make matters worse.  Any cartel or government intrusion into the private sector is fraught with opportunities for market manipulation, unless  there are clear transparent rules that are enforced. We are a long way for transparent rules that are enforced. Those in power, particularly at the Fed  and Treasury,  now routinely violate the law, and are never held to account or brought to justice. </p>
<p> Add the fact that today&#8217;s media, unlike the media of yesteryear are just the spin doctors for the fraud. They rarely report  the vast amount of  market manipulation, and regularly present a dishonest picture  to hide the manipulations of those in power.</p>
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		<title>By: Taunter</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/15/cit-battlelines/#comment-20113</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Taunter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:35:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4367#comment-20113</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It comes back to the point Nemo made yesterday: there is no evidence bailouts have any political cost whatsoever.

When the markets were crumbling and AIG bonuses were being paid, it looked like there was a political tide against bailouts.  But it turned out that there was a political tide against falling markets; once the markets were talked up, the pressure fell away.

The path of least resistance is to agree to the bailout.  Refusing the bailout causes (a) the nonzero risk the equity market declines; (b) complaining from affected stakeholders.  Granting the bailout, well, that&#039;s just following precedent.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It comes back to the point Nemo made yesterday: there is no evidence bailouts have any political cost whatsoever.</p>
<p>When the markets were crumbling and AIG bonuses were being paid, it looked like there was a political tide against bailouts.  But it turned out that there was a political tide against falling markets; once the markets were talked up, the pressure fell away.</p>
<p>The path of least resistance is to agree to the bailout.  Refusing the bailout causes (a) the nonzero risk the equity market declines; (b) complaining from affected stakeholders.  Granting the bailout, well, that&#8217;s just following precedent.</p>
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		<title>By: Jun-Dai</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/15/cit-battlelines/#comment-20112</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jun-Dai]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4367#comment-20112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How big a bailout are we talking about?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How big a bailout are we talking about?</p>
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		<title>By: Bond Girl</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/15/cit-battlelines/#comment-20110</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bond Girl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4367#comment-20110</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Their business would not be straightforward to refinance at all, unless by straightforward you mean the Treasury is providing the capital.  Why do you think there was a rush among their clients to draw down their lines?  They are doing what they can to get by.

Also, some of their small business clients are among their creditors.

I agree CIT should not be bailed out, but they will be because this administration makes decisions for sentimental and not economic reasons.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Their business would not be straightforward to refinance at all, unless by straightforward you mean the Treasury is providing the capital.  Why do you think there was a rush among their clients to draw down their lines?  They are doing what they can to get by.</p>
<p>Also, some of their small business clients are among their creditors.</p>
<p>I agree CIT should not be bailed out, but they will be because this administration makes decisions for sentimental and not economic reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: anne</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/15/cit-battlelines/#comment-20108</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4367#comment-20108</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I completely agree - but the feds last fall made the very profound decision to prop up the financial sector to avoid collapse.

My question is - since we&#039;ve made the commitment to absolve bankers of their losses, if we absolve only the losses from the biggest companies, aren&#039;t we creating further incentive for additional consolidation?  Where&#039;s the &quot;competition and dynamism&quot; in that?

Is that what we&#039;ve wanted all along?  The best and brightest working at just a couple of really big institutions, so that no matter what they do, the feds will HAVE to spread out the TARP to catch them when they fall?  Who&#039;ll use a smaller bank if they know that it will not be supported, should it fail?  But Goldman and Chase WILL get the full backing of the feds?

It seems that instead of moving away from &quot;too-big-to-fail&quot; - our policies in recent months have cemented it into place forever.

(I don&#039;t know what it is like where you live, but I happen to think that the electorate is feeling plenty of pain right now, at least over here in the flyover zone.  What we need is the leaders of the financial institutions - the people who oversaw the risky behaviors that led to the collapse - to perhaps share in some of the downsides of the catastrophe - but that&#039;s not happening at all - and does not look like it will ever happen.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely agree &#8211; but the feds last fall made the very profound decision to prop up the financial sector to avoid collapse.</p>
<p>My question is &#8211; since we&#8217;ve made the commitment to absolve bankers of their losses, if we absolve only the losses from the biggest companies, aren&#8217;t we creating further incentive for additional consolidation?  Where&#8217;s the &#8220;competition and dynamism&#8221; in that?</p>
<p>Is that what we&#8217;ve wanted all along?  The best and brightest working at just a couple of really big institutions, so that no matter what they do, the feds will HAVE to spread out the TARP to catch them when they fall?  Who&#8217;ll use a smaller bank if they know that it will not be supported, should it fail?  But Goldman and Chase WILL get the full backing of the feds?</p>
<p>It seems that instead of moving away from &#8220;too-big-to-fail&#8221; &#8211; our policies in recent months have cemented it into place forever.</p>
<p>(I don&#8217;t know what it is like where you live, but I happen to think that the electorate is feeling plenty of pain right now, at least over here in the flyover zone.  What we need is the leaders of the financial institutions &#8211; the people who oversaw the risky behaviors that led to the collapse &#8211; to perhaps share in some of the downsides of the catastrophe &#8211; but that&#8217;s not happening at all &#8211; and does not look like it will ever happen.)</p>
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		<title>By: apachecadillac</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/15/cit-battlelines/#comment-20107</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[apachecadillac]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4367#comment-20107</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[PaulH--
I wonder what support the WSJ could provide for the idea that the cartelization of finance would result in a loss of competition and dynamism.  As I recall the 1950s and 1960s, a period of considerable American strength, investment banks were clubby, commercial banks were white shoe and a drowsy, utility-ethos pervaded the entire sector.  Properly regulated, a &#039;cartel&#039; is a utility.  Of course, &#039;properly regulated&#039; is one of those terms that just may assume the conclusion.  But I&#039;m still baffled at why the business of shuffling money around should be particularly lucrative if done according to a set of proper rules.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PaulH&#8211;<br />
I wonder what support the WSJ could provide for the idea that the cartelization of finance would result in a loss of competition and dynamism.  As I recall the 1950s and 1960s, a period of considerable American strength, investment banks were clubby, commercial banks were white shoe and a drowsy, utility-ethos pervaded the entire sector.  Properly regulated, a &#8216;cartel&#8217; is a utility.  Of course, &#8216;properly regulated&#8217; is one of those terms that just may assume the conclusion.  But I&#8217;m still baffled at why the business of shuffling money around should be particularly lucrative if done according to a set of proper rules.</p>
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