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	<title>Comments on: Bankslaughter, Tort Law, and Optimal Deterrence</title>
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	<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/08/bankslaughter-and-tort-law/</link>
	<description>What happened to the global economy and what we can do about it</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 02:32:50 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/08/bankslaughter-and-tort-law/#comment-20700</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4301#comment-20700</guid>
		<description>Well … I also only have one year of law school under my belt. But it wasn&#039;t at Yale, it was at University of San Diego, where we do learn things. While &quot;bankslaughter&quot; as a concept sounds well and good, how can you even set this up as a crime for prosecution. How would you apply &quot;reckless&quot; and &quot;negligence&quot; to the industry? Who do you charge? Under what circumstance could you go after a CEO or other Execs for the actions of their trading desks and collateralized bond underwriting offices? How do you draw the lines of recklessness and risk? It&#039;s not as easy a manslaughter, and I say easy only lightly since you know how difficult such a simple legal concept as manslaughter can be for a jury.

There is really only one realistic way to deal with bank failure, stop rewarding it. I hate to sound like a simple &quot;capitalist&quot; but there is a lot of truth to the idea that people will not take unnecessary risks when they know nobody will rescue them.

Then this brings up the &quot;too big to fail&quot; concept. &quot;Make them smaller&quot; was the best response to that. I don&#039;t take Corporate law until fall (with Prof. Frank Partnoy!) and Antitrust is about a year out, but I think we can find plenty of legal routes to deal with this BEFORE we have a repeat of 2008 rather than try to criminalize the lines an industry is supposed to get close to but not go over for the sake of prosecuting those that lost their bets AFTER the crash.

And I&#039;ll be honest, there are PLENTY of laws the government could be utilizing to go after these firms. I think a better question to ponder is why aren&#039;t they? In all those trillions lost, no one was involved in fraud?

Good post though and I am totally in agreement that we young law students and those in the industry (I also work for a firm devastated by this, rhymes with Bith Smarney) need to find a way to restart this country on Capitalism 2.0</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well … I also only have one year of law school under my belt. But it wasn&#8217;t at Yale, it was at University of San Diego, where we do learn things. While &#8220;bankslaughter&#8221; as a concept sounds well and good, how can you even set this up as a crime for prosecution. How would you apply &#8220;reckless&#8221; and &#8220;negligence&#8221; to the industry? Who do you charge? Under what circumstance could you go after a CEO or other Execs for the actions of their trading desks and collateralized bond underwriting offices? How do you draw the lines of recklessness and risk? It&#8217;s not as easy a manslaughter, and I say easy only lightly since you know how difficult such a simple legal concept as manslaughter can be for a jury.</p>
<p>There is really only one realistic way to deal with bank failure, stop rewarding it. I hate to sound like a simple &#8220;capitalist&#8221; but there is a lot of truth to the idea that people will not take unnecessary risks when they know nobody will rescue them.</p>
<p>Then this brings up the &#8220;too big to fail&#8221; concept. &#8220;Make them smaller&#8221; was the best response to that. I don&#8217;t take Corporate law until fall (with Prof. Frank Partnoy!) and Antitrust is about a year out, but I think we can find plenty of legal routes to deal with this BEFORE we have a repeat of 2008 rather than try to criminalize the lines an industry is supposed to get close to but not go over for the sake of prosecuting those that lost their bets AFTER the crash.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;ll be honest, there are PLENTY of laws the government could be utilizing to go after these firms. I think a better question to ponder is why aren&#8217;t they? In all those trillions lost, no one was involved in fraud?</p>
<p>Good post though and I am totally in agreement that we young law students and those in the industry (I also work for a firm devastated by this, rhymes with Bith Smarney) need to find a way to restart this country on Capitalism 2.0</p>
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		<title>By: Charging a &#8216;Bailout Tax&#8217; on Big Banks</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/08/bankslaughter-and-tort-law/#comment-20193</link>
		<dc:creator>Charging a &#8216;Bailout Tax&#8217; on Big Banks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 06:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4301#comment-20193</guid>
		<description>[...] had a post criticizing John Carney on the topic of bankslaughter. However, I must say I agree with him when it comes to Goldman Sachs. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] had a post criticizing John Carney on the topic of bankslaughter. However, I must say I agree with him when it comes to Goldman Sachs. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: WSJ Editorial Page Favors &#8220;Bailout Tax&#8221; on Large Financial Institutions &#171; The Baseline Scenario</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/08/bankslaughter-and-tort-law/#comment-20133</link>
		<dc:creator>WSJ Editorial Page Favors &#8220;Bailout Tax&#8221; on Large Financial Institutions &#171; The Baseline Scenario</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:32:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4301#comment-20133</guid>
		<description>[...] a comment &#187;  I had a post criticizing John Carney on the topic of bankslaughter. However, I must say I agree with him when it comes to Goldman Sachs. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a comment &raquo;  I had a post criticizing John Carney on the topic of bankslaughter. However, I must say I agree with him when it comes to Goldman Sachs. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/08/bankslaughter-and-tort-law/#comment-19869</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 04:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4301#comment-19869</guid>
		<description>Too simplistic an analysis.  On the rainy road there is only the driver and the wet pavement.  How do you take into consideration (in our current mess) - legislators that provide the enabling framework, and in fact encourage inappropriate financial action, ignorant, or manipulative, real estate buyers, rating agencies that don&#039;t understand risk, etc. 

This seems to be part and parcel of our cancerous - someone has to pay because I was too stupid to  pay attention - society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Too simplistic an analysis.  On the rainy road there is only the driver and the wet pavement.  How do you take into consideration (in our current mess) &#8211; legislators that provide the enabling framework, and in fact encourage inappropriate financial action, ignorant, or manipulative, real estate buyers, rating agencies that don&#8217;t understand risk, etc. </p>
<p>This seems to be part and parcel of our cancerous &#8211; someone has to pay because I was too stupid to  pay attention &#8211; society.</p>
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		<title>By: Russ</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/08/bankslaughter-and-tort-law/#comment-19745</link>
		<dc:creator>Russ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4301#comment-19745</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s good, although inaccurate in detail.

Anthropological evidence shows that division of labor, social stratification and wealth accumulation began with agriculture.

This was the original sin which began the nightmare of history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s good, although inaccurate in detail.</p>
<p>Anthropological evidence shows that division of labor, social stratification and wealth accumulation began with agriculture.</p>
<p>This was the original sin which began the nightmare of history.</p>
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		<title>By: geaugailluminati</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/08/bankslaughter-and-tort-law/#comment-19713</link>
		<dc:creator>geaugailluminati</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:37:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4301#comment-19713</guid>
		<description>This Is Not a Poem


&quot;Things aren&#039;t what they used to be
and they never were.&quot; Will Rogers


John Bennett


Have things 
ever been 
different?
Sure they have.
Way back before
fire when
everyone&#039;s concern
was clubbing a
beast to 
the ground &amp;
devouring its
innards.
But whoever
put together the
first organized hunt
had an eye
on the future--
he saw the 
labor of
others as a
commodity.


This was 
the beginning of
mankind&#039;s
first great 
schism,
&amp; the gap
has grown until
now there are
two separate
species--
bankers &amp;
credit card holders.


Yes, it&#039;s a
simplification,
but there&#039;s
no need to
get complicated
to get to
the core of things.


There&#039;s no way to
make poetry 
out of 
such a
situation. 


Which
sums up what&#039;s
wrong with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This Is Not a Poem</p>
<p>&#8220;Things aren&#8217;t what they used to be<br />
and they never were.&#8221; Will Rogers</p>
<p>John Bennett</p>
<p>Have things<br />
ever been<br />
different?<br />
Sure they have.<br />
Way back before<br />
fire when<br />
everyone&#8217;s concern<br />
was clubbing a<br />
beast to<br />
the ground &amp;<br />
devouring its<br />
innards.<br />
But whoever<br />
put together the<br />
first organized hunt<br />
had an eye<br />
on the future&#8211;<br />
he saw the<br />
labor of<br />
others as a<br />
commodity.</p>
<p>This was<br />
the beginning of<br />
mankind&#8217;s<br />
first great<br />
schism,<br />
&amp; the gap<br />
has grown until<br />
now there are<br />
two separate<br />
species&#8211;<br />
bankers &amp;<br />
credit card holders.</p>
<p>Yes, it&#8217;s a<br />
simplification,<br />
but there&#8217;s<br />
no need to<br />
get complicated<br />
to get to<br />
the core of things.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no way to<br />
make poetry<br />
out of<br />
such a<br />
situation. </p>
<p>Which<br />
sums up what&#8217;s<br />
wrong with it.</p>
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		<title>By: vorkosigan1</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/08/bankslaughter-and-tort-law/#comment-19710</link>
		<dc:creator>vorkosigan1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 04:18:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4301#comment-19710</guid>
		<description>Not sure this is right. It&#039;s not that you should have known, it&#039;s that there was a duty of care that was breached.

Strict liability would be if your car splashed the baby and the baby died from it, assuming there was no duty of care to avoid splashing babies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure this is right. It&#8217;s not that you should have known, it&#8217;s that there was a duty of care that was breached.</p>
<p>Strict liability would be if your car splashed the baby and the baby died from it, assuming there was no duty of care to avoid splashing babies.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonnan</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/08/bankslaughter-and-tort-law/#comment-19702</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonnan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 02:51:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4301#comment-19702</guid>
		<description>Socially Beneficial Risk:
Noun. Risk to people I don&#039;t socialize with.

It&#039;s easy to twist words, but frankly I think this is exactly what that term means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Socially Beneficial Risk:<br />
Noun. Risk to people I don&#8217;t socialize with.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s easy to twist words, but frankly I think this is exactly what that term means.</p>
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		<title>By: Ilya</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/08/bankslaughter-and-tort-law/#comment-19696</link>
		<dc:creator>Ilya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4301#comment-19696</guid>
		<description>Art at 12:09 is spot on. Tort law does not speak to criminal behaviour. Insofar as criminal law is concerned, the concept of &#039;guilty mind&#039; continues to rule the day whcih rules out criminalising unintentional bank blow ups. so, we are back to torts and negligence but, of course, it is not clear who the fiduciary duty is owed to: the public at large? this is rather abstract...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Art at 12:09 is spot on. Tort law does not speak to criminal behaviour. Insofar as criminal law is concerned, the concept of &#8216;guilty mind&#8217; continues to rule the day whcih rules out criminalising unintentional bank blow ups. so, we are back to torts and negligence but, of course, it is not clear who the fiduciary duty is owed to: the public at large? this is rather abstract&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ruth</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/08/bankslaughter-and-tort-law/#comment-19679</link>
		<dc:creator>Ruth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 20:50:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4301#comment-19679</guid>
		<description>How about the simplicity of losing your job when you make huge mistakes at work?  Not bonuses, bailouts, and bigger positions.  Wow, what an unusual idea.  And if fines and/or criminal and/or civil charges follow, maybe, just maybe, justice will be served and the next big job won&#039;t be around the corner.  And if someone wants to take a chance again on the employee, they atleast have been warned.  Society might be a little safer and definitely more aware that you PAY TO PLAY.  WE WANT CHANGE!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about the simplicity of losing your job when you make huge mistakes at work?  Not bonuses, bailouts, and bigger positions.  Wow, what an unusual idea.  And if fines and/or criminal and/or civil charges follow, maybe, just maybe, justice will be served and the next big job won&#8217;t be around the corner.  And if someone wants to take a chance again on the employee, they atleast have been warned.  Society might be a little safer and definitely more aware that you PAY TO PLAY.  WE WANT CHANGE!</p>
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		<title>By: Ted K</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/08/bankslaughter-and-tort-law/#comment-19653</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:16:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4301#comment-19653</guid>
		<description>I assume this is humor on your part.

The family has to pay a fee to the Chinese government for the price of the bullet used to execute criminals.  No joke.  They&#039;re not too sentimental about human life over there.  They&#039;ve killed more of their own people (mostly through starvation) than any other nation on the planet.  Mao is still scene as a hero for not &quot;bending to the will of foreigners&quot; by excepting food from the outside world. 

Mr. Collier and James&#039; bankslaughter idea is great. But as for your idea of RICO I don&#039;t think we need to be copying too many ideas from China.  Unless you want to slave all day for greasy noodles and formaldehyde flavored beer, like 90% of the Chinese do now.  In which case, be my guest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I assume this is humor on your part.</p>
<p>The family has to pay a fee to the Chinese government for the price of the bullet used to execute criminals.  No joke.  They&#8217;re not too sentimental about human life over there.  They&#8217;ve killed more of their own people (mostly through starvation) than any other nation on the planet.  Mao is still scene as a hero for not &#8220;bending to the will of foreigners&#8221; by excepting food from the outside world. </p>
<p>Mr. Collier and James&#8217; bankslaughter idea is great. But as for your idea of RICO I don&#8217;t think we need to be copying too many ideas from China.  Unless you want to slave all day for greasy noodles and formaldehyde flavored beer, like 90% of the Chinese do now.  In which case, be my guest.</p>
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		<title>By: Random Links of Finance and Music to kill your Friday &#171; Rortybomb</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/08/bankslaughter-and-tort-law/#comment-19645</link>
		<dc:creator>Random Links of Finance and Music to kill your Friday &#171; Rortybomb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:46:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4301#comment-19645</guid>
		<description>[...] of Finance and Music to kill your&#160;Friday  Posted in Uncategorized by Mike on July 10, 2009   - James Kwak on bankslaughter. Knocked out of the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of Finance and Music to kill your&nbsp;Friday  Posted in Uncategorized by Mike on July 10, 2009   &#8211; James Kwak on bankslaughter. Knocked out of the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: notabanker</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/08/bankslaughter-and-tort-law/#comment-19641</link>
		<dc:creator>notabanker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:12:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4301#comment-19641</guid>
		<description>Is this  slaughter of banks or banks laughter?

I think TBTF banks are laughing fit to bust as they are on a win-win game</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is this  slaughter of banks or banks laughter?</p>
<p>I think TBTF banks are laughing fit to bust as they are on a win-win game</p>
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		<title>By: The Baseline Scenario &#124; EthicalMarkets.com</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/08/bankslaughter-and-tort-law/#comment-19635</link>
		<dc:creator>The Baseline Scenario &#124; EthicalMarkets.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:01:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4301#comment-19635</guid>
		<description>[...] Bankslaughter, Tort Law, and Optimal Deterrence Posted: 08 Jul 2009 08:33 PM PDT [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Bankslaughter, Tort Law, and Optimal Deterrence Posted: 08 Jul 2009 08:33 PM PDT [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bayard</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/08/bankslaughter-and-tort-law/#comment-19600</link>
		<dc:creator>Bayard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 03:46:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4301#comment-19600</guid>
		<description>I love the term because it so closely matches the criminal offense after which it is coined:  Bankslaughter kills innocent investors, and does not involve intent, but rather rational imprudence (the same as manslaughter).  We definitely need to develop a criminal penalty for malfeasance arising from the failure to perform prudently within the rational universe which includes innocent bystanders (as in our latest financial crisis vis-a-vis the development of investment vehicles where the risk was intentionally hidden by the creators of the risk).  I have always felt that it is dangerous to attempt to legislate morality, but in some cases it is justified.  This is one of those cases.  If such a law could be instituted, and financial rewards provided to whistle blowers, we might have to make a lot of court space and prison space available.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love the term because it so closely matches the criminal offense after which it is coined:  Bankslaughter kills innocent investors, and does not involve intent, but rather rational imprudence (the same as manslaughter).  We definitely need to develop a criminal penalty for malfeasance arising from the failure to perform prudently within the rational universe which includes innocent bystanders (as in our latest financial crisis vis-a-vis the development of investment vehicles where the risk was intentionally hidden by the creators of the risk).  I have always felt that it is dangerous to attempt to legislate morality, but in some cases it is justified.  This is one of those cases.  If such a law could be instituted, and financial rewards provided to whistle blowers, we might have to make a lot of court space and prison space available.</p>
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