<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Efficient Markets and Innovation</title>
	<atom:link href="http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/</link>
	<description>What happened to the global economy and what we can do about it</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 08:48:43 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Financial Innovation, Once More Into the Breach &#171; The Enterprise Blog</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/#comment-18659</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Financial Innovation, Once More Into the Breach &#171; The Enterprise Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:34:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4147#comment-18659</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Kwak has another thoughtful post on financial innovation. The context is the debate over reverse convertibles, a product James still doesn&#8217;t think [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Kwak has another thoughtful post on financial innovation. The context is the debate over reverse convertibles, a product James still doesn&#8217;t think [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: q</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/#comment-18577</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[q]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 20:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4147#comment-18577</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[they aren&#039;t in any way necessary.  i am also not sure if they are allowed to be traded in the US.  most of them are traded out of london i think.

for a good explanation of them read this: http://www.acredittrader.com/?p=81.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>they aren&#8217;t in any way necessary.  i am also not sure if they are allowed to be traded in the US.  most of them are traded out of london i think.</p>
<p>for a good explanation of them read this: <a href="http://www.acredittrader.com/?p=81" rel="nofollow">http://www.acredittrader.com/?p=81</a>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/#comment-18509</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Charles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 03:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4147#comment-18509</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the reminder, Max.  The GT is still the best book on macroeconomics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the reminder, Max.  The GT is still the best book on macroeconomics.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/#comment-18507</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Charles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 02:54:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4147#comment-18507</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[First, a recommendation:  &quot;Animal Spirits&quot; by Akerloff and Shiller.  In this book, the authors take the presumption of homo economicus (particularly the naive version) and the macroeconomic theoretical edifice (artifice?) upon which it is built to task.  It&#039;s a terrific read, very accessible, sensible, yet, technically first quality (as is the academic work of its authors).  The EMH and CAPM can be viewed as special cases of the arguments they build for including a much larger and more scientific assessment of the role of &quot;animal spirits&quot; (Keynes&#039; phrase) in economic decisions.

Second, to assert that derivatives exist because they add value by assuming that they couldn&#039;t exist if they didn&#039;t is circular.  In the study of rhetoric, there is a name for it:  begging the question, which means, simply, assuming the point you are trying to prove.

Third, all decisions about assets reduce to buy or sell (hold is simply sell the asset at close, buy the same asset in the same quantity at open or, in a continuous market, sell and buy the same asset in the same quantity continuously).  All financial innovations are variations on this choice and can be analyzed in terms of how well a particular asset reflects it.  If we are rational, we buy them because we believe that we will be able to sell them for more than we paid for them or we sell them because we believe that we won&#039;t and would prefer to buy an asset that we think we will be able to sell for more.

I realize that &quot;everybody knows this&quot; (sigh), but I also see people forgetting it every day (from which I infer that &quot;everybody&quot; &quot;knows&quot; otherwise).  In an efficient market (even a weak-form efficient market) with rational participants, hybrid securities and strategies wouldn&#039;t exist, even at the margins (of creditworthiness, in particular).  They add no value and, therefore, have no role to play.  If you are rational and have gathered all of the information available and necessary to decide whether you are sufficiently confident that the price of the asset(s) you are considering buying will increase, you should buy the asset or a call option on it (if you&#039;re confident that you can predict the duration of the window of opportunity).  If you decide that the price will decrease and you own this asset, you will sell it or buy a put option.  To employ any other strategy or combination of strategies increases transaction costs, incurs greater risk without offering commensurately greater potential return or reduces risk by limiting potential returns commensurately or more.

Selling a covered call (buying a covered put) is a good, simple example of a hybrid strategy that limits return potential and reduces transaction costs, but doesn&#039;t limit risk materially.  Another example is the convertible bond.  The buyer sacrifices current return (lower coupon payments) and future return (the sum of the below-strike-price segment of the price appreciation of the associated stock and the above-call price appreciation of the stock), thereby achieving the worst of both worlds---lower coupon and lower potential price appreciation.  Who would buy such an instrument?  The seller, on the other hand, pays a smaller premium on the bond then he would&#039;ve on a simple bond and avoids the far greater cost of selling equity in the firm (especially if the firm&#039;s performance is not strong).  The seller does bear some of the risk of his own success.  If the seller&#039;s enterprise succeeds beyond his limited expectations, a greater share of the rewards are transferred to the bondholders when they convert.  Hence, the seller installs a call provision, which he exercises when he succeeds, thereby, limiting the rewards he must share with those bondholders to the cost of calling the shares and paying for them (an increase in the coupon, really) less the cost of the interest and principal repayments he would&#039;ve made had the bonds been allowed to mature.

No rational investor would buy such securities or employ such investment strategies.  What would the financial condition of a firm have to be to offer such securities?  Surely, rational investors in an efficient market would identify such firms as troubled simply because they have to offer this type of compromise (deception?) to raise money.

q, btw, is correct in his assertion that derivatives function mainly to shift risk to another player from oneself.  I must say that Max&#039;s quotes from GT provide wonderful narratives to that process, in which the unsold inventory of highest-risk assets are the Old Maid in that game.  There are no hedges against holding the Old Maid when the game stops.

There is, without question, much more to this story.  Nevertheless, the role or existence of hybrid securities or derivatives has not been explained by any economic theory of which I&#039;m aware that does not include a significant role for &quot;animal spirits&quot; (or any other phrase you want to use to describe how people feel about events, acts and motives).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, a recommendation:  &#8220;Animal Spirits&#8221; by Akerloff and Shiller.  In this book, the authors take the presumption of homo economicus (particularly the naive version) and the macroeconomic theoretical edifice (artifice?) upon which it is built to task.  It&#8217;s a terrific read, very accessible, sensible, yet, technically first quality (as is the academic work of its authors).  The EMH and CAPM can be viewed as special cases of the arguments they build for including a much larger and more scientific assessment of the role of &#8220;animal spirits&#8221; (Keynes&#8217; phrase) in economic decisions.</p>
<p>Second, to assert that derivatives exist because they add value by assuming that they couldn&#8217;t exist if they didn&#8217;t is circular.  In the study of rhetoric, there is a name for it:  begging the question, which means, simply, assuming the point you are trying to prove.</p>
<p>Third, all decisions about assets reduce to buy or sell (hold is simply sell the asset at close, buy the same asset in the same quantity at open or, in a continuous market, sell and buy the same asset in the same quantity continuously).  All financial innovations are variations on this choice and can be analyzed in terms of how well a particular asset reflects it.  If we are rational, we buy them because we believe that we will be able to sell them for more than we paid for them or we sell them because we believe that we won&#8217;t and would prefer to buy an asset that we think we will be able to sell for more.</p>
<p>I realize that &#8220;everybody knows this&#8221; (sigh), but I also see people forgetting it every day (from which I infer that &#8220;everybody&#8221; &#8220;knows&#8221; otherwise).  In an efficient market (even a weak-form efficient market) with rational participants, hybrid securities and strategies wouldn&#8217;t exist, even at the margins (of creditworthiness, in particular).  They add no value and, therefore, have no role to play.  If you are rational and have gathered all of the information available and necessary to decide whether you are sufficiently confident that the price of the asset(s) you are considering buying will increase, you should buy the asset or a call option on it (if you&#8217;re confident that you can predict the duration of the window of opportunity).  If you decide that the price will decrease and you own this asset, you will sell it or buy a put option.  To employ any other strategy or combination of strategies increases transaction costs, incurs greater risk without offering commensurately greater potential return or reduces risk by limiting potential returns commensurately or more.</p>
<p>Selling a covered call (buying a covered put) is a good, simple example of a hybrid strategy that limits return potential and reduces transaction costs, but doesn&#8217;t limit risk materially.  Another example is the convertible bond.  The buyer sacrifices current return (lower coupon payments) and future return (the sum of the below-strike-price segment of the price appreciation of the associated stock and the above-call price appreciation of the stock), thereby achieving the worst of both worlds&#8212;lower coupon and lower potential price appreciation.  Who would buy such an instrument?  The seller, on the other hand, pays a smaller premium on the bond then he would&#8217;ve on a simple bond and avoids the far greater cost of selling equity in the firm (especially if the firm&#8217;s performance is not strong).  The seller does bear some of the risk of his own success.  If the seller&#8217;s enterprise succeeds beyond his limited expectations, a greater share of the rewards are transferred to the bondholders when they convert.  Hence, the seller installs a call provision, which he exercises when he succeeds, thereby, limiting the rewards he must share with those bondholders to the cost of calling the shares and paying for them (an increase in the coupon, really) less the cost of the interest and principal repayments he would&#8217;ve made had the bonds been allowed to mature.</p>
<p>No rational investor would buy such securities or employ such investment strategies.  What would the financial condition of a firm have to be to offer such securities?  Surely, rational investors in an efficient market would identify such firms as troubled simply because they have to offer this type of compromise (deception?) to raise money.</p>
<p>q, btw, is correct in his assertion that derivatives function mainly to shift risk to another player from oneself.  I must say that Max&#8217;s quotes from GT provide wonderful narratives to that process, in which the unsold inventory of highest-risk assets are the Old Maid in that game.  There are no hedges against holding the Old Maid when the game stops.</p>
<p>There is, without question, much more to this story.  Nevertheless, the role or existence of hybrid securities or derivatives has not been explained by any economic theory of which I&#8217;m aware that does not include a significant role for &#8220;animal spirits&#8221; (or any other phrase you want to use to describe how people feel about events, acts and motives).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: StatsGuy</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/#comment-18481</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[StatsGuy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4147#comment-18481</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, sorry.  Sovereign CDSs are effectively being used as a hedge against currency devaluation.  But we already have currency options.  So, why are they really needed?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, sorry.  Sovereign CDSs are effectively being used as a hedge against currency devaluation.  But we already have currency options.  So, why are they really needed?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Lamb</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/#comment-18469</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Lamb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4147#comment-18469</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The efficient-market hypothesis has been debunked again and again.  The fact that you&#039;ve heard of a man named &quot;Warren Buffett&quot; is a testament to that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The efficient-market hypothesis has been debunked again and again.  The fact that you&#8217;ve heard of a man named &#8220;Warren Buffett&#8221; is a testament to that.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rocky Humbert</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/#comment-18364</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rocky Humbert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4147#comment-18364</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[An interesting academic paper which hasn&#039;t been discussed in this thread:

See Szymanowska, Ter Horst, Veld (2009) Journal of Futures Markets: &quot;Reverse Convertibles Analyzed&quot;.  The authors show that the securities are, on average, overpriced by almost 6%.  But they find some rational factors to explain some (but not all) of the overpricing.  A must read for the quant wonks!

Click on this link, and then the SSRN button to download the paper:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=730543]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting academic paper which hasn&#8217;t been discussed in this thread:</p>
<p>See Szymanowska, Ter Horst, Veld (2009) Journal of Futures Markets: &#8220;Reverse Convertibles Analyzed&#8221;.  The authors show that the securities are, on average, overpriced by almost 6%.  But they find some rational factors to explain some (but not all) of the overpricing.  A must read for the quant wonks!</p>
<p>Click on this link, and then the SSRN button to download the paper:<br />
<a href="http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=730543" rel="nofollow">http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=730543</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/#comment-18358</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4147#comment-18358</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[James, 

 Is this how you really think bubbles form:

 &quot;That’s exactly what happens in a bubble; everyone knows that prices are no longer related to fundamentals, but enough people think they will be able to sell before the bubble bursts that prices keep on going up.&quot;

 Bubbles are just one big conspiracy where everyone thinks they will find a bigger fool? I think plenty of behavioral finance research (Thaler, Schiller, et al.) has shown that herd behavior and other psychological reasons exist for why bubbles form.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, </p>
<p> Is this how you really think bubbles form:</p>
<p> &#8220;That’s exactly what happens in a bubble; everyone knows that prices are no longer related to fundamentals, but enough people think they will be able to sell before the bubble bursts that prices keep on going up.&#8221;</p>
<p> Bubbles are just one big conspiracy where everyone thinks they will find a bigger fool? I think plenty of behavioral finance research (Thaler, Schiller, et al.) has shown that herd behavior and other psychological reasons exist for why bubbles form.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mother, I Thought We Went Over This Already &#171;  Modeled Behavior</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/#comment-18327</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mother, I Thought We Went Over This Already &#171;  Modeled Behavior]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4147#comment-18327</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] ~ June 23rd, 2009   In a series of posts Mike at Rortybomb, James Kwak at Baseline Scenario and the usual suspects around the finance blogosphere excoriate financial [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ~ June 23rd, 2009   In a series of posts Mike at Rortybomb, James Kwak at Baseline Scenario and the usual suspects around the finance blogosphere excoriate financial [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/#comment-18316</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Max]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:35:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4147#comment-18316</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rereading Ch 12 I am tempted to put the whole chapter here. By a great effort of will, however, I&#039;ll limit myself to just one more paragraph. Personally, I find it amazing that the clearest, most cogent, and the most convincing demolition of the Efficient Market Hypothesis actually predates the EMH itself!
Back to Keynes... 

Keynes (General Theoty Chapter 12 cont.):

&lt;em&gt;&#039;If the reader interjects that there must surely be large profits to be gained from the other players in the long run by a skilled individual who, unperturbed by the prevailing pastime, continues to purchase investments on the best genuine long-term expectations he can frame, he must be answered, first of all, that there are, indeed, such serious-minded individuals and that it makes a vast difference to an investment market whether or not they predominate in their influence over the game-players. But we must also add that there are several factors which jeopardise the predominance of such individuals in modern investment markets. Investment based on genuine long-term expectation is so difficult to-day as to be scarcely practicable. He who attempts it must surely lead much more laborious days and run greater risks than he who tries to guess better than the crowd how the crowd will behave; and, given equal intelligence, he may make more disastrous mistakes. There is no clear evidence from experience that the investment policy which is socially advantageous coincides with that which is most profitable. It needs more intelligence to defeat the forces of time and our ignorance of the future than to beat the gun. Moreover, life is not long enough; — human nature desires quick results, there is a peculiar zest in making money quickly, and remoter gains are discounted by the average man at a very high rate. The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll. Furthermore, an investor who proposes to ignore near-term market fluctuations needs greater resources for safety and must not operate on so large a scale, if at all, with borrowed money — a further reason for the higher return from the pastime to a given stock of intelligence and resources. Finally it is the long-term investor, he who most promotes the public interest, who will in practice come in for most criticism, wherever investment funds are managed by committees or boards or banks.[4] For it is in the essence of his behaviour that he should be eccentric, unconventional and rash in the eyes of average opinion. If he is successful, that will only confirm the general belief in his rashness; and if in the short run he is unsuccessful, which is very likely, he will not receive much mercy. Worldly wisdom teaches that it is better for reputation to fail conventionally than to succeed unconventionally.&#039;&lt;/em&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rereading Ch 12 I am tempted to put the whole chapter here. By a great effort of will, however, I&#8217;ll limit myself to just one more paragraph. Personally, I find it amazing that the clearest, most cogent, and the most convincing demolition of the Efficient Market Hypothesis actually predates the EMH itself!<br />
Back to Keynes&#8230; </p>
<p>Keynes (General Theoty Chapter 12 cont.):</p>
<p><em>&#8216;If the reader interjects that there must surely be large profits to be gained from the other players in the long run by a skilled individual who, unperturbed by the prevailing pastime, continues to purchase investments on the best genuine long-term expectations he can frame, he must be answered, first of all, that there are, indeed, such serious-minded individuals and that it makes a vast difference to an investment market whether or not they predominate in their influence over the game-players. But we must also add that there are several factors which jeopardise the predominance of such individuals in modern investment markets. Investment based on genuine long-term expectation is so difficult to-day as to be scarcely practicable. He who attempts it must surely lead much more laborious days and run greater risks than he who tries to guess better than the crowd how the crowd will behave; and, given equal intelligence, he may make more disastrous mistakes. There is no clear evidence from experience that the investment policy which is socially advantageous coincides with that which is most profitable. It needs more intelligence to defeat the forces of time and our ignorance of the future than to beat the gun. Moreover, life is not long enough; — human nature desires quick results, there is a peculiar zest in making money quickly, and remoter gains are discounted by the average man at a very high rate. The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll. Furthermore, an investor who proposes to ignore near-term market fluctuations needs greater resources for safety and must not operate on so large a scale, if at all, with borrowed money — a further reason for the higher return from the pastime to a given stock of intelligence and resources. Finally it is the long-term investor, he who most promotes the public interest, who will in practice come in for most criticism, wherever investment funds are managed by committees or boards or banks.[4] For it is in the essence of his behaviour that he should be eccentric, unconventional and rash in the eyes of average opinion. If he is successful, that will only confirm the general belief in his rashness; and if in the short run he is unsuccessful, which is very likely, he will not receive much mercy. Worldly wisdom teaches that it is better for reputation to fail conventionally than to succeed unconventionally.&#8217;</em></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ted K</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/#comment-18309</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 06:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4147#comment-18309</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Quoting a homosexual anti-Semite educated at King&#039;s College, Cambridge........ but he was a genius.......
Jolly good show!!! Jolly good show!!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quoting a homosexual anti-Semite educated at King&#8217;s College, Cambridge&#8230;&#8230;.. but he was a genius&#8230;&#8230;.<br />
Jolly good show!!! Jolly good show!!!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/#comment-18304</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 05:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4147#comment-18304</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[James,

Although you make a convincing argument about some products being less innovative than meets the eye, I think your argument gets a little twisted when it assumes that efficient markets and complete markets means the same thing. These two concepts are not the same.

The arguments (whether credible or not) given for innovations like reverse convertibles was that they were &#039;completing the market&#039;. This is not the same as saying that they were making markets more efficient. Market efficiency is more related to the idea of no-arbitrage.

In both theory and practice, we can have markets that are complete, but not arbitrage free (i.e. markets that are complete, but not efficient), as well as markets that are efficient, but not complete.

I think your arguments would be even more persuasive if you focused on the validity (or lack thereof) of whether products like reverse convertibles really were completing the market, or were just &quot;chicken dressed up like ham&quot;.

Alan.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>Although you make a convincing argument about some products being less innovative than meets the eye, I think your argument gets a little twisted when it assumes that efficient markets and complete markets means the same thing. These two concepts are not the same.</p>
<p>The arguments (whether credible or not) given for innovations like reverse convertibles was that they were &#8216;completing the market&#8217;. This is not the same as saying that they were making markets more efficient. Market efficiency is more related to the idea of no-arbitrage.</p>
<p>In both theory and practice, we can have markets that are complete, but not arbitrage free (i.e. markets that are complete, but not efficient), as well as markets that are efficient, but not complete.</p>
<p>I think your arguments would be even more persuasive if you focused on the validity (or lack thereof) of whether products like reverse convertibles really were completing the market, or were just &#8220;chicken dressed up like ham&#8221;.</p>
<p>Alan.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/#comment-18299</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Max]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 04:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4147#comment-18299</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[James Kwak:
&lt;em&gt;
&quot;This is the old “Chicago-school” assumption that even though individuals are irrational, markets behave as if people are perfectly rational. This assumption is at least plausible (though almost certainly wrong) when it comes to prices for heavily-traded stocks; there the argument is that a few well-capitalized, rational hedge fund managers are enough to counteract the irrational hordes.&quot; &lt;/em&gt;

Chicago is rather notorious for resurrecting discredited arguments and trying to pass them off as something novel. The reason the above argument is likely to be wrong was clearly spelled out by Keynes all those years ago:

Keynes (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/keynes/general-theory/ch12.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;GT Chapter 12&lt;/a&gt;):

&#039;It might have been supposed that competition between expert professionals, possessing judgment and knowledge beyond that of the average private investor, would correct the vagaries of the ignorant individual left to himself. It happens, however, that the energies and skill of the professional investor and speculator are mainly occupied otherwise. For most of these persons are, in fact, largely concerned, not with making superior long-term forecasts of the probable yield of an investment over its whole life, but with foreseeing changes in the conventional basis of valuation a short time ahead of the general public. They are concerned, not with what an investment is really worth to a man who buys it “for keeps”, but with what the market will value it at, under the influence of mass psychology, three months or a year hence. Moreover, this behaviour is not the outcome of a wrong-headed propensity. It is an inevitable result of an investment market organised along the lines described. For it is not sensible to pay 25 for an investment of which you believe the prospective yield to justify a value of 30, if you also believe that the market will value it at 20 three months hence.&#039;
...

&#039;This battle of wits to anticipate the basis of conventional valuation a few months hence, rather than the prospective yield of an investment over a long term of years, does not even require gulls amongst the public to feed the maws of the professional; — it can be played by professionals amongst themselves. Nor is it necessary that anyone should keep his simple faith in the conventional basis of valuation having any genuine long-term validity. For it is, so to speak, a game of Snap, of Old Maid, of Musical Chairs — a pastime in which he is victor who says Snap neither too soon nor too late, who passes the Old Maid to his neighbour before the game is over, who secures a chair for himself when the music stops. These games can be played with zest and enjoyment, though all the players know that it is the Old Maid which is circulating, or that when the music stops some of the players will find themselves unseated.

Or, to change the metaphor slightly, professional investment may be likened to those newspaper competitions in which the competitors have to pick out the six prettiest faces from a hundred photographs, the prize being awarded to the competitor whose choice most nearly corresponds to the average preferences of the competitors as a whole; so that each competitor has to pick, not those faces which he himself finds prettiest, but those which he thinks likeliest to catch the fancy of the other competitors, all of whom are looking at the problem from the same point of view. It is not a case of choosing those which, to the best of one’s judgment, are really the prettiest, nor even those which average opinion genuinely thinks the prettiest. We have reached the third degree where we devote our intelligences to anticipating what average opinion expects the average opinion to be. And there are some, I believe, who practise the fourth, fifth and higher degrees.&#039;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James Kwak:<br />
<em><br />
&#8220;This is the old “Chicago-school” assumption that even though individuals are irrational, markets behave as if people are perfectly rational. This assumption is at least plausible (though almost certainly wrong) when it comes to prices for heavily-traded stocks; there the argument is that a few well-capitalized, rational hedge fund managers are enough to counteract the irrational hordes.&#8221; </em></p>
<p>Chicago is rather notorious for resurrecting discredited arguments and trying to pass them off as something novel. The reason the above argument is likely to be wrong was clearly spelled out by Keynes all those years ago:</p>
<p>Keynes (<a href="http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/keynes/general-theory/ch12.htm" rel="nofollow">GT Chapter 12</a>):</p>
<p>&#8216;It might have been supposed that competition between expert professionals, possessing judgment and knowledge beyond that of the average private investor, would correct the vagaries of the ignorant individual left to himself. It happens, however, that the energies and skill of the professional investor and speculator are mainly occupied otherwise. For most of these persons are, in fact, largely concerned, not with making superior long-term forecasts of the probable yield of an investment over its whole life, but with foreseeing changes in the conventional basis of valuation a short time ahead of the general public. They are concerned, not with what an investment is really worth to a man who buys it “for keeps”, but with what the market will value it at, under the influence of mass psychology, three months or a year hence. Moreover, this behaviour is not the outcome of a wrong-headed propensity. It is an inevitable result of an investment market organised along the lines described. For it is not sensible to pay 25 for an investment of which you believe the prospective yield to justify a value of 30, if you also believe that the market will value it at 20 three months hence.&#8217;<br />
&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8216;This battle of wits to anticipate the basis of conventional valuation a few months hence, rather than the prospective yield of an investment over a long term of years, does not even require gulls amongst the public to feed the maws of the professional; — it can be played by professionals amongst themselves. Nor is it necessary that anyone should keep his simple faith in the conventional basis of valuation having any genuine long-term validity. For it is, so to speak, a game of Snap, of Old Maid, of Musical Chairs — a pastime in which he is victor who says Snap neither too soon nor too late, who passes the Old Maid to his neighbour before the game is over, who secures a chair for himself when the music stops. These games can be played with zest and enjoyment, though all the players know that it is the Old Maid which is circulating, or that when the music stops some of the players will find themselves unseated.</p>
<p>Or, to change the metaphor slightly, professional investment may be likened to those newspaper competitions in which the competitors have to pick out the six prettiest faces from a hundred photographs, the prize being awarded to the competitor whose choice most nearly corresponds to the average preferences of the competitors as a whole; so that each competitor has to pick, not those faces which he himself finds prettiest, but those which he thinks likeliest to catch the fancy of the other competitors, all of whom are looking at the problem from the same point of view. It is not a case of choosing those which, to the best of one’s judgment, are really the prettiest, nor even those which average opinion genuinely thinks the prettiest. We have reached the third degree where we devote our intelligences to anticipating what average opinion expects the average opinion to be. And there are some, I believe, who practise the fourth, fifth and higher degrees.&#8217;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eric W</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/#comment-18296</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric W]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 04:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4147#comment-18296</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On financial innovation: a thought that has been running around in my head is that the financial industry has so much money now that they don&#039;t have enough places to put it, so they keep inventing new places to stash it--sort of circularly flowing piggy banks. If we imagine that all the fancy stuff went away (reverse convertibles, CDS, CDO, MBS, options, futures, etc) where would all that money go? The only thing I can think of that could absorb that much money would be privatizing space exploration, as an investment. Since that isn&#039;t seen as a likely bet, they must come up with innovations just to have a place to store their cash.

I&#039;m not saying they&#039;re consciously doing this, but perhaps there&#039;s a bit of deep panic over what to do with all that money (you can be close to bankruptcy and still have lots and lots of money, right?).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On financial innovation: a thought that has been running around in my head is that the financial industry has so much money now that they don&#8217;t have enough places to put it, so they keep inventing new places to stash it&#8211;sort of circularly flowing piggy banks. If we imagine that all the fancy stuff went away (reverse convertibles, CDS, CDO, MBS, options, futures, etc) where would all that money go? The only thing I can think of that could absorb that much money would be privatizing space exploration, as an investment. Since that isn&#8217;t seen as a likely bet, they must come up with innovations just to have a place to store their cash.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying they&#8217;re consciously doing this, but perhaps there&#8217;s a bit of deep panic over what to do with all that money (you can be close to bankruptcy and still have lots and lots of money, right?).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ted K</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/22/efficient-markets-and-innovation/#comment-18288</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 02:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=4147#comment-18288</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Efficient Market Hypothesis is a useful tool and mental exercise to  understand and see things more clearly.  No one in their right mind really believes it.  Let me repeat that. NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND REALLY BELIEVES IN EMH.  I don&#039;t even think Milton Friedman or Burton Malkiel believe it deep in their heart (or recesses of their mind).  Alan Greenspan, one of the biggest proponents of EMH spent a large segment of his life in government and quasi-government jobs.  And Greenspan spent many hours looking at inventory build-ups and the cardboard box business (tracking liner board prices) and zillions of other numbers/indicators pumped out by the Federal Reserve to see if he could outguess the next moves of the market.  Which shows you what a GIGANTIC ego Alan Greenspan had/has that he thought he could adjust something he proclaimed as in essence perfectly efficient.  
     Economics and finance are human activities. They have the same imperfect (sometimes inefficient) character as ALL human
 activities. TRY TO GET OVER IT.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Efficient Market Hypothesis is a useful tool and mental exercise to  understand and see things more clearly.  No one in their right mind really believes it.  Let me repeat that. NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND REALLY BELIEVES IN EMH.  I don&#8217;t even think Milton Friedman or Burton Malkiel believe it deep in their heart (or recesses of their mind).  Alan Greenspan, one of the biggest proponents of EMH spent a large segment of his life in government and quasi-government jobs.  And Greenspan spent many hours looking at inventory build-ups and the cardboard box business (tracking liner board prices) and zillions of other numbers/indicators pumped out by the Federal Reserve to see if he could outguess the next moves of the market.  Which shows you what a GIGANTIC ego Alan Greenspan had/has that he thought he could adjust something he proclaimed as in essence perfectly efficient.<br />
     Economics and finance are human activities. They have the same imperfect (sometimes inefficient) character as ALL human<br />
 activities. TRY TO GET OVER IT.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

