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	<title>Comments on: What Would Gorbachev Say? On The US, China, And Saudi Arabia</title>
	<atom:link href="http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/</link>
	<description>What happened to the global economy and what we can do about it</description>
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		<title>By: Do We Defeat the Deficit or Does It Defeat Us? &#171; DELAWARE REPUBLICAN</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/#comment-17433</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Do We Defeat the Deficit or Does It Defeat Us? &#171; DELAWARE REPUBLICAN]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 02:35:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3942#comment-17433</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Third, we have to stop hoping the Saudis will bail us out. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Third, we have to stop hoping the Saudis will bail us out. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: retaguardiaclub</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/#comment-16765</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[retaguardiaclub]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 10:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Nobody. President Obama will realize, via Mackinder theories, that China and Saudi Arabia are not reliable]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody. President Obama will realize, via Mackinder theories, that China and Saudi Arabia are not reliable</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Tippy Golden</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/#comment-16747</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tippy Golden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 19:21:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3942#comment-16747</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I could soften my language and say:

... towards, so China and Saudi Arabia might wish, an implosion of American global hegemony]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I could soften my language and say:</p>
<p>&#8230; towards, so China and Saudi Arabia might wish, an implosion of American global hegemony</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Tippy Golden</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/#comment-16735</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tippy Golden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 16:56:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3942#comment-16735</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Simon is suggesting China and Saudi Arabia are willing to play along (lending and cheap oil) while the United States blithely drives (pun intended) towards an implosion of its global hegemony.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Simon is suggesting China and Saudi Arabia are willing to play along (lending and cheap oil) while the United States blithely drives (pun intended) towards an implosion of its global hegemony.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Oskar Ajo</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/#comment-16703</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Oskar Ajo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 22:00:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3942#comment-16703</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My opinion is that the soviets committed several strategic blunders in their lifetime, listed below in chronological order:

-Cuban Missile Crisis

--Failure to turn Brazil into a commie dictatorship

---Focusing on Nicaragua instead of Mexico (did not learn from their mistakes in Brazil)

I think that the soviets collapsed in spite of Reagan.

----Afghanistan invasion]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My opinion is that the soviets committed several strategic blunders in their lifetime, listed below in chronological order:</p>
<p>-Cuban Missile Crisis</p>
<p>&#8211;Failure to turn Brazil into a commie dictatorship</p>
<p>&#8212;Focusing on Nicaragua instead of Mexico (did not learn from their mistakes in Brazil)</p>
<p>I think that the soviets collapsed in spite of Reagan.</p>
<p>&#8212;-Afghanistan invasion</p>
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		<title>By: Steve W from Ford</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/#comment-16627</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve W from Ford]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 00:35:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3942#comment-16627</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So, looks like you are saying there will be another chance to profit by shorting the banks and the dollar coming along here in a year or two.

The truly wonderful thing about the structure of the market is that you can make lots of money betting on it&#039;s destruction and then flip around and make more as the pump is primed. Woohoo! And Nero only had a fiddle!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, looks like you are saying there will be another chance to profit by shorting the banks and the dollar coming along here in a year or two.</p>
<p>The truly wonderful thing about the structure of the market is that you can make lots of money betting on it&#8217;s destruction and then flip around and make more as the pump is primed. Woohoo! And Nero only had a fiddle!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Obama&#8217;s Gorbachev Moment - Economix Blog - NYTimes.com</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/#comment-16567</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Obama&#8217;s Gorbachev Moment - Economix Blog - NYTimes.com]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 11:06:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3942#comment-16567</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Third, we have to stop hoping the Saudis will bail us out. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Third, we have to stop hoping the Saudis will bail us out. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Peter Fox-Penner</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/#comment-16535</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Fox-Penner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3942#comment-16535</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Regarding reducing oil dependence, I think your implied criticism of Obama is unfair.  After fewer than 120 days in office, they’ve brokered a deal to increase fuel economy standards by previously unthinkable amounts.  This is the strongest move to reduce oil dependence since the 1970s.  Moreover, Obama has been promoting plug-in hybrids – some would say excessively – since his campaign.  Honestly, no candidate or President has been as committed to this goal as Obama, based on the record to date.

Best Wishes, Peter Fox-Penner]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding reducing oil dependence, I think your implied criticism of Obama is unfair.  After fewer than 120 days in office, they’ve brokered a deal to increase fuel economy standards by previously unthinkable amounts.  This is the strongest move to reduce oil dependence since the 1970s.  Moreover, Obama has been promoting plug-in hybrids – some would say excessively – since his campaign.  Honestly, no candidate or President has been as committed to this goal as Obama, based on the record to date.</p>
<p>Best Wishes, Peter Fox-Penner</p>
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		<title>By: a</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/#comment-16503</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[a]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 16:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3942#comment-16503</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You need a balanced budget unless there&#039;s a 2/3 vote to declare war.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You need a balanced budget unless there&#8217;s a 2/3 vote to declare war.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: rfreud</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/#comment-16497</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[rfreud]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 15:33:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3942#comment-16497</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Seems to me the President has made himself perfectly clear, as usual. He has said that the &quot;investments,&quot; which, in this period of crisis, it has been necessary to make to address the problems in the banking and automobile manufacturing sectors, are, from a budget perspective, dwarfed by the unfunded Medicare commitments. Solve that, he said, and the problems with debt to GDP ratios and all the rest go away. As for those who are throwing around the word &quot;socialism&quot; and decrying Obama&#039;s style and his choice of advisors,  would you have preferred Bush and Paulson in the last five months? Former Clinton Administration Secretary of Labor Robert Reich on his blog this week, comes to the conclusion that the bailout of the automakers serves no useful purpose, certainly not much benefit to labor, other than to cushion the blow of the loss of a iconic industry. The bailout of the banking system seems to me to have had a similar dynamic or rationale. Imagine for a moment what would have happened in the markets had Citigroup gone the way of Lehman all of a sudden. As a nation, we are not prepared to take the losses that are coming at us and policy seems to be aimed to &quot;buying time,&quot; indeed a lot of it, to absorb it and adjust. Meanwhile, China is not nearly ready to take on the global leadership role that seems to be its destiny, and it may be decades before that comes to pass. The Gulf States or the Japanese seem unlikely hegemonic powers. Over at the Financial Times the last few days, the word &quot;normal&quot; is suddenly rather frequent, as in return to normal and the new normal. None of this negates Simon Johnson&#039;s well taken point that there is plenty that could be done to manage better our vulnerabilities relative to dependency on imported oil and imported capital. Personally, I don&#039;t understand why we are not driving automobiles that run on domestically abundant and cheap natural gas. And I don&#039;t understand why we are not seeing the US Treasury coming forth with some creative ways to attract the growing savings of US citizens, like perhaps some type of TIPS that protects against duration risk with rising rates as well as inflation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems to me the President has made himself perfectly clear, as usual. He has said that the &#8220;investments,&#8221; which, in this period of crisis, it has been necessary to make to address the problems in the banking and automobile manufacturing sectors, are, from a budget perspective, dwarfed by the unfunded Medicare commitments. Solve that, he said, and the problems with debt to GDP ratios and all the rest go away. As for those who are throwing around the word &#8220;socialism&#8221; and decrying Obama&#8217;s style and his choice of advisors,  would you have preferred Bush and Paulson in the last five months? Former Clinton Administration Secretary of Labor Robert Reich on his blog this week, comes to the conclusion that the bailout of the automakers serves no useful purpose, certainly not much benefit to labor, other than to cushion the blow of the loss of a iconic industry. The bailout of the banking system seems to me to have had a similar dynamic or rationale. Imagine for a moment what would have happened in the markets had Citigroup gone the way of Lehman all of a sudden. As a nation, we are not prepared to take the losses that are coming at us and policy seems to be aimed to &#8220;buying time,&#8221; indeed a lot of it, to absorb it and adjust. Meanwhile, China is not nearly ready to take on the global leadership role that seems to be its destiny, and it may be decades before that comes to pass. The Gulf States or the Japanese seem unlikely hegemonic powers. Over at the Financial Times the last few days, the word &#8220;normal&#8221; is suddenly rather frequent, as in return to normal and the new normal. None of this negates Simon Johnson&#8217;s well taken point that there is plenty that could be done to manage better our vulnerabilities relative to dependency on imported oil and imported capital. Personally, I don&#8217;t understand why we are not driving automobiles that run on domestically abundant and cheap natural gas. And I don&#8217;t understand why we are not seeing the US Treasury coming forth with some creative ways to attract the growing savings of US citizens, like perhaps some type of TIPS that protects against duration risk with rising rates as well as inflation.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Patrice Ayme</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/#comment-16483</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrice Ayme]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:37:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3942#comment-16483</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Are we supposed to just think in less than 5,000 words? It&#039;s not because writting is suddenly called &quot;blogging&quot; that it should be hostile to discursive reason.
There is nothing wrong with having deep thoughts in more than 5,000 words. The issues raised by Michael Brenner are cogent. In the face of the incredible decisions taken in the last six months, they may be central to, well, survival, nothing less.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are we supposed to just think in less than 5,000 words? It&#8217;s not because writting is suddenly called &#8220;blogging&#8221; that it should be hostile to discursive reason.<br />
There is nothing wrong with having deep thoughts in more than 5,000 words. The issues raised by Michael Brenner are cogent. In the face of the incredible decisions taken in the last six months, they may be central to, well, survival, nothing less.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: robby</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/#comment-16480</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[robby]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:24:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3942#comment-16480</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, these &#039;stupid people&#039; have the money and the rest of us have the debt.  I don&#039;t think it was stupid at all from their point of view. It was extraordinarily calculating.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, these &#8216;stupid people&#8217; have the money and the rest of us have the debt.  I don&#8217;t think it was stupid at all from their point of view. It was extraordinarily calculating.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: markets.aurelius</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/#comment-16466</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[markets.aurelius]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 10:16:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3942#comment-16466</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There are many good, even great points, here.  But there is one overwhelming theme I cannot get comfortable with: The implicit and explicit confrontation between the US and China, which assumes both seek global hegemonic power.  

Right now, at this particular point in history, we have two distinct evolutionary trends -- the American model and the Chinese model -- that appear to be converging to a common dimension within a couple of generations: Governments that are accountable to the governed, a process that&#039;s been in train since at least the 11th and 12th centuries, which itself was an historical convergence of massive trends set in motion centuries before in Greece and Rome and Anglo-Saxon England.  (Sounds a little like G.F. Hegel, I know ... and I do think he was a bit of a nut with all that hero-worship ... but he did see the flow of history correctly.)

Keep in mind, both America and China -- in their present incarnations -- are the products of popular revolutions.  This means the people living within the borders or both countries seized control of their destinies, albeit in violent fashion.  So, at a very fundamental level, both governments evolved out of a massive re-ordering of the social contract.

Following some horrific displays of murderous disregard for its citizens natural rights, China&#039;s leadership now appears to be doing its best to accommodate a massive internal migration, in which millions of people who live there -- seeking a better life for themselves, but mostly for their kids -- are moving from rural to urban areas every year.  How the successful formula for leading in China went from the cult of Mao, and his total control, to a Communist Party that, to all appearances, wants to retain power by providing basic physical necessities to as many of its citizens as possible, is a mystery.  Maybe the overlords realized that, in a massively interconnected world, it was impossible to lie to the masses unless they were willing to shut down all interaction with the rest of the world like N. Korea apparently has done.  But that would be too costly, and it would be unsustainable: Generations of Chinese intellectuals who were trained in the West returned home and set themselves to building a future that, at a very deep, almost genetic level, pre-supposed freedom of thought and inquiry as the starting point of any problem-solving effort.

To accommodate the demand of its citizens for basic necessities, the government must build cities and supply jobs.  Those jobs must create wealth, so that internal growth can occur.  For the past several decades the only outlet for the increasing production of China as these policies became reality has been the US, Canada, and Europe.  

In the US, following the end of the Cold War (including the Vietnam War), a massive wave of consumer demand was unleashed, which could not be fully met by US productive capacity alone.  Asian supply -- Japan, then Korea, then China -- all tee&#039;d up to meet this demand, largely owing to a labor-cost advantage, but gradually becoming a technological advantage.

So we&#039;ve been, in a way, co-dependent.  But that&#039;s what economic intercourse is -- it is mutual dependence on each other: Demand cannot be met without supply, and supply needs a sink or else it&#039;s waste.

What&#039;s striking right now is the visible opening of China&#039;s political and social spaces, which is occurring as the economy expands.  And, even tho they&#039;re not exactly America&#039;s Founding Fathers, the Chinese leadership does appear to be directly the government toward being accountable to the governed.  Look at how the government responds to natural disasters, e.g.

This is not to say, as Simon notes in this post, that you won&#039;t see destructive rent-seeking behaviour in China, just like we&#039;ve seen here in the US thru countless large and small cycles.  

But in both countries it appears the trend is upward -- toward more accountable government.  Open societies are better able to correct past excess than dictatorships and oligarchies: the collective IQ far exceeds any individual&#039;s or clique&#039;s.  China&#039;s behaving as if it realizes this.  America has always realized this.

These types of societies have multiple self-corrective mechanisms, which can be subverted as we&#039;ve seen.  The hope for the future is those in power don&#039;t want to risk another revolution, where everything has to be restarted at t = 0.

But, then again, as Jefferson said, “Every generation needs a new revolution.”]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are many good, even great points, here.  But there is one overwhelming theme I cannot get comfortable with: The implicit and explicit confrontation between the US and China, which assumes both seek global hegemonic power.  </p>
<p>Right now, at this particular point in history, we have two distinct evolutionary trends &#8212; the American model and the Chinese model &#8212; that appear to be converging to a common dimension within a couple of generations: Governments that are accountable to the governed, a process that&#8217;s been in train since at least the 11th and 12th centuries, which itself was an historical convergence of massive trends set in motion centuries before in Greece and Rome and Anglo-Saxon England.  (Sounds a little like G.F. Hegel, I know &#8230; and I do think he was a bit of a nut with all that hero-worship &#8230; but he did see the flow of history correctly.)</p>
<p>Keep in mind, both America and China &#8212; in their present incarnations &#8212; are the products of popular revolutions.  This means the people living within the borders or both countries seized control of their destinies, albeit in violent fashion.  So, at a very fundamental level, both governments evolved out of a massive re-ordering of the social contract.</p>
<p>Following some horrific displays of murderous disregard for its citizens natural rights, China&#8217;s leadership now appears to be doing its best to accommodate a massive internal migration, in which millions of people who live there &#8212; seeking a better life for themselves, but mostly for their kids &#8212; are moving from rural to urban areas every year.  How the successful formula for leading in China went from the cult of Mao, and his total control, to a Communist Party that, to all appearances, wants to retain power by providing basic physical necessities to as many of its citizens as possible, is a mystery.  Maybe the overlords realized that, in a massively interconnected world, it was impossible to lie to the masses unless they were willing to shut down all interaction with the rest of the world like N. Korea apparently has done.  But that would be too costly, and it would be unsustainable: Generations of Chinese intellectuals who were trained in the West returned home and set themselves to building a future that, at a very deep, almost genetic level, pre-supposed freedom of thought and inquiry as the starting point of any problem-solving effort.</p>
<p>To accommodate the demand of its citizens for basic necessities, the government must build cities and supply jobs.  Those jobs must create wealth, so that internal growth can occur.  For the past several decades the only outlet for the increasing production of China as these policies became reality has been the US, Canada, and Europe.  </p>
<p>In the US, following the end of the Cold War (including the Vietnam War), a massive wave of consumer demand was unleashed, which could not be fully met by US productive capacity alone.  Asian supply &#8212; Japan, then Korea, then China &#8212; all tee&#8217;d up to meet this demand, largely owing to a labor-cost advantage, but gradually becoming a technological advantage.</p>
<p>So we&#8217;ve been, in a way, co-dependent.  But that&#8217;s what economic intercourse is &#8212; it is mutual dependence on each other: Demand cannot be met without supply, and supply needs a sink or else it&#8217;s waste.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s striking right now is the visible opening of China&#8217;s political and social spaces, which is occurring as the economy expands.  And, even tho they&#8217;re not exactly America&#8217;s Founding Fathers, the Chinese leadership does appear to be directly the government toward being accountable to the governed.  Look at how the government responds to natural disasters, e.g.</p>
<p>This is not to say, as Simon notes in this post, that you won&#8217;t see destructive rent-seeking behaviour in China, just like we&#8217;ve seen here in the US thru countless large and small cycles.  </p>
<p>But in both countries it appears the trend is upward &#8212; toward more accountable government.  Open societies are better able to correct past excess than dictatorships and oligarchies: the collective IQ far exceeds any individual&#8217;s or clique&#8217;s.  China&#8217;s behaving as if it realizes this.  America has always realized this.</p>
<p>These types of societies have multiple self-corrective mechanisms, which can be subverted as we&#8217;ve seen.  The hope for the future is those in power don&#8217;t want to risk another revolution, where everything has to be restarted at t = 0.</p>
<p>But, then again, as Jefferson said, “Every generation needs a new revolution.”</p>
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		<title>By: Ze</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/#comment-16322</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ze]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 06:57:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3942#comment-16322</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://mwhodges.home.att.net/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://mwhodges.home.att.net/" rel="nofollow">http://mwhodges.home.att.net/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Rogers</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/06/02/what-would-gorbachev-say-on-the-us-china-and-saudi-arabia/#comment-16289</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Rogers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 06:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3942#comment-16289</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Move over Simon Johnson, Prof. Brenner is on your tail.
That said, we should thank Prof. Brenner for his exposition and honesty.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Move over Simon Johnson, Prof. Brenner is on your tail.<br />
That said, we should thank Prof. Brenner for his exposition and honesty.</p>
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