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	<title>Comments on: Mr. Geithner Goes to China</title>
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	<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/30/mr-geithner-goes-to-china/</link>
	<description>What happened to the global economy and what we can do about it</description>
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		<title>By: The Gold Standard &#187; Geithner, America and China</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/30/mr-geithner-goes-to-china/#comment-16764</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Gold Standard &#187; Geithner, America and China]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 09:46:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3897#comment-16764</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] The real issues are covered by Simon Johnson at Baseline Scenario. See his posts here and here. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The real issues are covered by Simon Johnson at Baseline Scenario. See his posts here and here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Is China Taking Geithner To The Cleaners? - The Plank</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/30/mr-geithner-goes-to-china/#comment-16054</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Is China Taking Geithner To The Cleaners? - The Plank]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 20:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3897#comment-16054</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] seems likely to push for more.&#160;Their main idea is that some part of their U.S. dollar holdings be transfered to a claim on [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] seems likely to push for more.&nbsp;Their main idea is that some part of their U.S. dollar holdings be transfered to a claim on [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Realtime: Secretary Geithner in Beijing: China Pushes Hard</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/30/mr-geithner-goes-to-china/#comment-16050</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Realtime: Secretary Geithner in Beijing: China Pushes Hard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 19:47:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3897#comment-16050</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] surprisingly, China seems likely to push for more. Their main idea is that some part of their US dollar holdings be transferred to a claim on the [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] surprisingly, China seems likely to push for more. Their main idea is that some part of their US dollar holdings be transferred to a claim on the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: China Pushes Hard</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/30/mr-geithner-goes-to-china/#comment-16016</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[China Pushes Hard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:49:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3897#comment-16016</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] seems likely to push for more.  Their main idea is that some part of their US dollar holdings be transfered to a claim on the [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] seems likely to push for more.  Their main idea is that some part of their US dollar holdings be transfered to a claim on the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: StatsGuy</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/30/mr-geithner-goes-to-china/#comment-15997</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[StatsGuy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 13:19:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3897#comment-15997</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, but they still need commodities to support internal manufacturing, even if it&#039;s targeted toward the domestic market.  Coal and Coke they have domestically.  They need iron, other metals, oil.  Hence the commodities &quot;shopping spree&quot;.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/21/business/worldbusiness/21yuan.html

The challenge is that penetrating other markets with those resources (in many languages, with many retail outlets, different local consumption patterns, etc.) takes a little time.  Penetrating the US market and buying commodities with dollars was ever so easy by comparison.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but they still need commodities to support internal manufacturing, even if it&#8217;s targeted toward the domestic market.  Coal and Coke they have domestically.  They need iron, other metals, oil.  Hence the commodities &#8220;shopping spree&#8221;.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/21/business/worldbusiness/21yuan.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/21/business/worldbusiness/21yuan.html</a></p>
<p>The challenge is that penetrating other markets with those resources (in many languages, with many retail outlets, different local consumption patterns, etc.) takes a little time.  Penetrating the US market and buying commodities with dollars was ever so easy by comparison.</p>
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		<title>By: Ze</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/30/mr-geithner-goes-to-china/#comment-15981</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ze]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 10:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3897#comment-15981</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Granted that the Chinese economic restructuring will take time, its goal may well be self-reliance, instead of an export-based economy. This idea is pursued in detail in the posts of Henry C.K. Liu:

http://henryckliu.com/

for example, under the section titled &quot;Shifting China&#039;s export towards the domestic market&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Granted that the Chinese economic restructuring will take time, its goal may well be self-reliance, instead of an export-based economy. This idea is pursued in detail in the posts of Henry C.K. Liu:</p>
<p><a href="http://henryckliu.com/" rel="nofollow">http://henryckliu.com/</a></p>
<p>for example, under the section titled &#8220;Shifting China&#8217;s export towards the domestic market&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: rfreud</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/30/mr-geithner-goes-to-china/#comment-15971</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[rfreud]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 03:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3897#comment-15971</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Geithner goes to China over the weekend and on the following Monday, General Motors files a pre-packaged bankruptcy. 

I for one, expect to see a smiling joint communique expressing China&#039;s support for the dollar. 

Various sources are reporting that the new GM, with financing from the US Treasury, will be marketing small cars produced by US, unionized factory where parts imported from China will be assembled. 

And so some of the proceeds those T-Bills the Chinese are buying will apparently be recycled back to support Chinese export and heavy industry.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geithner goes to China over the weekend and on the following Monday, General Motors files a pre-packaged bankruptcy. </p>
<p>I for one, expect to see a smiling joint communique expressing China&#8217;s support for the dollar. </p>
<p>Various sources are reporting that the new GM, with financing from the US Treasury, will be marketing small cars produced by US, unionized factory where parts imported from China will be assembled. </p>
<p>And so some of the proceeds those T-Bills the Chinese are buying will apparently be recycled back to support Chinese export and heavy industry.</p>
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		<title>By: StatsGuy</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/30/mr-geithner-goes-to-china/#comment-15962</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[StatsGuy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 00:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3897#comment-15962</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From Ze:

&quot;From the Chinese point of view, it is best to support the dollar as a safe haven currency until they have finished opting out of it – which may take a while, then let it drop sharply in order to establish the yuan as the world’s new currency of choice.&quot;

Ze has it right here.  Likewise for SNS.

US currency power is in decline, and what remains of that power is largely driven by the simple fear among dollar-owners of letting their holdings devalue rapidly.  They are thus supporting the currency while slowly shifting out of it.  In a sense, the US itself is &quot;too-big-to-fail&quot; (for now).

The US has two options (other than vascillation and incompetence) - negotiate a currency transition or preempt the fall of the US currency by printing money (leaving dollar owners holding the bag).  

The preemption option essentially involves printing a vast amount of money and using it to restructure US debt.  Though tempting, this would incur tremendous domestic consequences and the US does not seem to have the ability to act decisively in such a manner.  (not with the tremendous influence of financial interests who would lose out)  China seems well aware of this difficulty, and has signalled such - its grumblings about not supporting US debt were clearly intended for global financial media consumption.

The negotiation option is difficult to read, since any successful negotiation would never hit the presses.  We can be certain those negotiations have taken place, but we cannot know what may have been the outcome.

Yet it is important not to overstate China&#039;s strength in this matter.  China is in the unfortunate position that much of its production feeds US consumption, and it uses US dollars to buy commodities from other countries.  It needs to redirect exports to commodity producing regions (and, essentially, cut the US dollar out of the loop).  But the commodity producing regions cannot afford current Chinese exports, nor are those exports customized for those markets.  This transition will not happen quickly.

Assuming the transition is managed, the question is whether the US can get its current account in order BEFORE China has completed its economic restructuring.  This, essentially, means fixing our sick economy on many dimensions (aka, living within our means).  In order to do this, it would be helpful to print dollars AND to devalue the dollar to reduce imports, but China doesn&#039;t want us to do this because this harms its reserves (and/or forces it to loan the US more to sustain the value of its reserves) and creates internal dislocations.  That is why China is grumbling - it wants to control the timing of the transition.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From Ze:</p>
<p>&#8220;From the Chinese point of view, it is best to support the dollar as a safe haven currency until they have finished opting out of it – which may take a while, then let it drop sharply in order to establish the yuan as the world’s new currency of choice.&#8221;</p>
<p>Ze has it right here.  Likewise for SNS.</p>
<p>US currency power is in decline, and what remains of that power is largely driven by the simple fear among dollar-owners of letting their holdings devalue rapidly.  They are thus supporting the currency while slowly shifting out of it.  In a sense, the US itself is &#8220;too-big-to-fail&#8221; (for now).</p>
<p>The US has two options (other than vascillation and incompetence) &#8211; negotiate a currency transition or preempt the fall of the US currency by printing money (leaving dollar owners holding the bag).  </p>
<p>The preemption option essentially involves printing a vast amount of money and using it to restructure US debt.  Though tempting, this would incur tremendous domestic consequences and the US does not seem to have the ability to act decisively in such a manner.  (not with the tremendous influence of financial interests who would lose out)  China seems well aware of this difficulty, and has signalled such &#8211; its grumblings about not supporting US debt were clearly intended for global financial media consumption.</p>
<p>The negotiation option is difficult to read, since any successful negotiation would never hit the presses.  We can be certain those negotiations have taken place, but we cannot know what may have been the outcome.</p>
<p>Yet it is important not to overstate China&#8217;s strength in this matter.  China is in the unfortunate position that much of its production feeds US consumption, and it uses US dollars to buy commodities from other countries.  It needs to redirect exports to commodity producing regions (and, essentially, cut the US dollar out of the loop).  But the commodity producing regions cannot afford current Chinese exports, nor are those exports customized for those markets.  This transition will not happen quickly.</p>
<p>Assuming the transition is managed, the question is whether the US can get its current account in order BEFORE China has completed its economic restructuring.  This, essentially, means fixing our sick economy on many dimensions (aka, living within our means).  In order to do this, it would be helpful to print dollars AND to devalue the dollar to reduce imports, but China doesn&#8217;t want us to do this because this harms its reserves (and/or forces it to loan the US more to sustain the value of its reserves) and creates internal dislocations.  That is why China is grumbling &#8211; it wants to control the timing of the transition.</p>
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		<title>By: Ze</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/30/mr-geithner-goes-to-china/#comment-15946</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ze]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 21:42:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3897#comment-15946</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[People are still trying to tell China what is &quot;fair&quot; to do in the name of a theoretical free-market ideology. If Malaysia could &quot;break the rules&quot; in 1997, so can China now. After all, the Chinese government is acting in the benefit of the Chinese people, not the entire world, and China is now in a state to dictate its terms, because it has been saving when others were carelessly spending. 

The US seems to have no choice but to inflate its way out of the debt mountain, and the Chinese just want to make sure that they continue to get a positive real interest rate on the dollar while this happens. I will not be surprised to see the 10- and 30-year rates jumping sharply in the near future, as the US desperately tries to maintain the attractiveness of its bonds.

If, as written above, China is stockpiling on commodities, it is acting wisely because it should indeed prepare for a global inflationary wave, that may affect developing economies more seriously than developed countries, to the point of causing social unrest.

From the Chinese point of view, it is best to support the dollar as a safe haven currency until they have finished opting out of it - which may take a while, then let it drop sharply in order to establish the yuan as the world&#039;s new currency of choice.

Americans perhaps find it easier to think that the Chinese pursue a policy of economic cooperation with the US. If this view is blindly followed, the consequences may be dire.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People are still trying to tell China what is &#8220;fair&#8221; to do in the name of a theoretical free-market ideology. If Malaysia could &#8220;break the rules&#8221; in 1997, so can China now. After all, the Chinese government is acting in the benefit of the Chinese people, not the entire world, and China is now in a state to dictate its terms, because it has been saving when others were carelessly spending. </p>
<p>The US seems to have no choice but to inflate its way out of the debt mountain, and the Chinese just want to make sure that they continue to get a positive real interest rate on the dollar while this happens. I will not be surprised to see the 10- and 30-year rates jumping sharply in the near future, as the US desperately tries to maintain the attractiveness of its bonds.</p>
<p>If, as written above, China is stockpiling on commodities, it is acting wisely because it should indeed prepare for a global inflationary wave, that may affect developing economies more seriously than developed countries, to the point of causing social unrest.</p>
<p>From the Chinese point of view, it is best to support the dollar as a safe haven currency until they have finished opting out of it &#8211; which may take a while, then let it drop sharply in order to establish the yuan as the world&#8217;s new currency of choice.</p>
<p>Americans perhaps find it easier to think that the Chinese pursue a policy of economic cooperation with the US. If this view is blindly followed, the consequences may be dire.</p>
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		<title>By: AMo</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/30/mr-geithner-goes-to-china/#comment-15933</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AMo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 19:41:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3897#comment-15933</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very good points indeed.

It isn&#039;t a pipe dream. The US political elite seem to be clueless on the economic consequences of deficits as far as the eye can see and a looming entitlement crisis.

Foreigners will stop lending us money at these absurdly cheap rates and they are increasingly seeing the huge risk of holding US dollars as a reserve currency.

We can only hope that they divest themselves slowly, but a run on the dollar and US bonds is not out of the question.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good points indeed.</p>
<p>It isn&#8217;t a pipe dream. The US political elite seem to be clueless on the economic consequences of deficits as far as the eye can see and a looming entitlement crisis.</p>
<p>Foreigners will stop lending us money at these absurdly cheap rates and they are increasingly seeing the huge risk of holding US dollars as a reserve currency.</p>
<p>We can only hope that they divest themselves slowly, but a run on the dollar and US bonds is not out of the question.</p>
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		<title>By: doughboy857</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/30/mr-geithner-goes-to-china/#comment-15932</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[doughboy857]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 19:37:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3897#comment-15932</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Geithner and this so called Administration of change has sold this country down the river.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geithner and this so called Administration of change has sold this country down the river.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: broaderlookecon</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/30/mr-geithner-goes-to-china/#comment-15923</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[broaderlookecon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 15:33:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3897#comment-15923</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Have you ever stopped to consider that China has a different view of its place in the world than being an equal or lesser amongst western rule books? That it does not want to be a friend or partner with Japan? 
Or, that China&#039;s desire to negotiate has other than economics in mind.  Such as repudiating US 2-China policy?  Your underlying assumptions need to be expressed so the context of what you say, which I respect and agree with, has a little more political depth.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you ever stopped to consider that China has a different view of its place in the world than being an equal or lesser amongst western rule books? That it does not want to be a friend or partner with Japan?<br />
Or, that China&#8217;s desire to negotiate has other than economics in mind.  Such as repudiating US 2-China policy?  Your underlying assumptions need to be expressed so the context of what you say, which I respect and agree with, has a little more political depth.</p>
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		<title>By: robin hood</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/30/mr-geithner-goes-to-china/#comment-15918</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[robin hood]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 14:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3897#comment-15918</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;First, where would China move its reserve holdings?&quot;
That is where they are trying to move them - commodities and gold...!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;First, where would China move its reserve holdings?&#8221;<br />
That is where they are trying to move them &#8211; commodities and gold&#8230;!</p>
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		<title>By: Architect</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/30/mr-geithner-goes-to-china/#comment-15895</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Architect]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 23:18:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3897#comment-15895</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To put matters in proportion can anyone provide some time series data for the past 10 years showing the actual inflows of foreign funds into the US capital market,and the share/contribution of developing economies especially China of such inflows?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To put matters in proportion can anyone provide some time series data for the past 10 years showing the actual inflows of foreign funds into the US capital market,and the share/contribution of developing economies especially China of such inflows?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Peter B</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/30/mr-geithner-goes-to-china/#comment-15893</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 22:38:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3897#comment-15893</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Chinese provided cheap funds to the US banks who then wasted a unique opportunity in use the funds for truly productive and potentially transformational purposes and in turn invested them in &quot;real assets&quot; such as real estate and financial instruments like CDOs, CDSs and other financial &quot;innovations&quot; and now the experts want to &quot;blame&quot; China for the problem. In the meantime, the Petersen Institute (N Lardy et al)in 2005 or 06 said the RMB needed to appreciate about 25% vs the US$ and in the intervening period the RMB appreciated about 22% and the deficit with the US increased even more. Does anyone really know what they are talking about? 

Even if the CEOs of the Investment Banks, the Rating Agencies and Mortgage Originators will never accept real responsibility, one would think the independent economists would recognize where the real responsibility lies instead to trying to blame a country with $2,900 per capita income and emerging market and financial systems vs the country with 20 times the per capita income and apparently the most innovative and sophisticated market and financial systems in the world. To portray the US as a &quot;helpless&quot; victim taken advantage of by the malevolent Chinese is ridiculous but unfortunately not surprising]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Chinese provided cheap funds to the US banks who then wasted a unique opportunity in use the funds for truly productive and potentially transformational purposes and in turn invested them in &#8220;real assets&#8221; such as real estate and financial instruments like CDOs, CDSs and other financial &#8220;innovations&#8221; and now the experts want to &#8220;blame&#8221; China for the problem. In the meantime, the Petersen Institute (N Lardy et al)in 2005 or 06 said the RMB needed to appreciate about 25% vs the US$ and in the intervening period the RMB appreciated about 22% and the deficit with the US increased even more. Does anyone really know what they are talking about? </p>
<p>Even if the CEOs of the Investment Banks, the Rating Agencies and Mortgage Originators will never accept real responsibility, one would think the independent economists would recognize where the real responsibility lies instead to trying to blame a country with $2,900 per capita income and emerging market and financial systems vs the country with 20 times the per capita income and apparently the most innovative and sophisticated market and financial systems in the world. To portray the US as a &#8220;helpless&#8221; victim taken advantage of by the malevolent Chinese is ridiculous but unfortunately not surprising</p>
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