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	<title>Comments on: CAFE, Part Two</title>
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	<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/21/cafe-part-two/</link>
	<description>What happened to the global economy and what we can do about it</description>
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		<title>By: self-evident &#187; Carbon Emissions</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/21/cafe-part-two/#comment-15274</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[self-evident &#187; Carbon Emissions]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 01:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3787#comment-15274</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] brings me to this week, with Obama trumpeting his new CAFE standards. Despite various contorted analyses, it is pretty clear that these standards will make approximately no difference. Like most of what [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] brings me to this week, with Obama trumpeting his new CAFE standards. Despite various contorted analyses, it is pretty clear that these standards will make approximately no difference. Like most of what [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/21/cafe-part-two/#comment-15179</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Larry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 03:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3787#comment-15179</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think you misinterpret this:

&quot;NHTSA uses 2060 as the end point for the analysis [of fuel consumption] because it is the time at which 98 percent or more of the operating fleet would be made up of MY 2011-2015 or newer vehicles, thus achieving the maximum fuel savings under this rule.&quot;

It says &quot;MY 2011-2015 OR NEWER&quot; vehicles. Those newer vehicles have to meet the higher standards, too. So there is no &quot;reversion&quot; to the baseline.

The broader question is what constitutes a fair interpretation of the effects of some policy. &quot;Anything is better than now&quot; is one test, but I think we have to do better. Assuming that your policy gets adopted worldwide is also thinking pretty wishfully. Cost/benefit analysis keeps on rearing its ugly head as the reasonable way to look at stuff like this. So what is the cost of the new CAFE? We don&#039;t know. What is the benefit in economic terms? We don&#039;t know.

CAFE is the dumbest of the three now under discussion (vs Cap/Trade or carbon tax). It&#039;s a pretty sad commentary that it&#039;s the one (and apparently the only one) that we&#039;re going with.

One informational question: Can anybody explain the &quot;footprint&quot; bit? That&#039;s the notion that vehicles that cover the same area viewed from directly above (who comes up with this stuff!) will be grouped in some way. Apparently the mfgs don&#039;t get to count &quot;mix&quot; shifts as an improvement. Huh?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you misinterpret this:</p>
<p>&#8220;NHTSA uses 2060 as the end point for the analysis [of fuel consumption] because it is the time at which 98 percent or more of the operating fleet would be made up of MY 2011-2015 or newer vehicles, thus achieving the maximum fuel savings under this rule.&#8221;</p>
<p>It says &#8220;MY 2011-2015 OR NEWER&#8221; vehicles. Those newer vehicles have to meet the higher standards, too. So there is no &#8220;reversion&#8221; to the baseline.</p>
<p>The broader question is what constitutes a fair interpretation of the effects of some policy. &#8220;Anything is better than now&#8221; is one test, but I think we have to do better. Assuming that your policy gets adopted worldwide is also thinking pretty wishfully. Cost/benefit analysis keeps on rearing its ugly head as the reasonable way to look at stuff like this. So what is the cost of the new CAFE? We don&#8217;t know. What is the benefit in economic terms? We don&#8217;t know.</p>
<p>CAFE is the dumbest of the three now under discussion (vs Cap/Trade or carbon tax). It&#8217;s a pretty sad commentary that it&#8217;s the one (and apparently the only one) that we&#8217;re going with.</p>
<p>One informational question: Can anybody explain the &#8220;footprint&#8221; bit? That&#8217;s the notion that vehicles that cover the same area viewed from directly above (who comes up with this stuff!) will be grouped in some way. Apparently the mfgs don&#8217;t get to count &#8220;mix&#8221; shifts as an improvement. Huh?</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/21/cafe-part-two/#comment-15176</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Larry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 02:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3787#comment-15176</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If what you want is R&amp;D, do the R&amp;D, without the enormous nutso side-effects of CAFE. Hennessey and McArdle offer a full catalog of those. 

We need good battery technology - much better than we have today. Batteries are the missing link for the switch to electrics. There are so many other advantages to electrics (no tuneups! no smog checks!) that we would have changed years ago if only the batteries were adequate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If what you want is R&amp;D, do the R&amp;D, without the enormous nutso side-effects of CAFE. Hennessey and McArdle offer a full catalog of those. </p>
<p>We need good battery technology &#8211; much better than we have today. Batteries are the missing link for the switch to electrics. There are so many other advantages to electrics (no tuneups! no smog checks!) that we would have changed years ago if only the batteries were adequate.</p>
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		<title>By: Brant</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/21/cafe-part-two/#comment-15167</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 23:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3787#comment-15167</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The &quot;Policy&quot; line on the fuel consumption graph is shown in the vicinity of 100mpg and the text implies that it will continue upward forever.  That ignores physics.  If cars are hydrocarbon powered, the line must level off.  And if cars are powered by something else, then an analysis of the environmental impacts of that something else must be understood before concluding that it is a good thing.  The original NTHSA analysis erred on extrapolating to 2100, but not conceptually.  The Obama plan imposes high costs and delivers negligible benefit as compared to the Bush plan.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;Policy&#8221; line on the fuel consumption graph is shown in the vicinity of 100mpg and the text implies that it will continue upward forever.  That ignores physics.  If cars are hydrocarbon powered, the line must level off.  And if cars are powered by something else, then an analysis of the environmental impacts of that something else must be understood before concluding that it is a good thing.  The original NTHSA analysis erred on extrapolating to 2100, but not conceptually.  The Obama plan imposes high costs and delivers negligible benefit as compared to the Bush plan.</p>
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		<title>By: eric</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/21/cafe-part-two/#comment-15160</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[eric]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 22:06:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3787#comment-15160</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t mind carrots too much. I hate sticks. Obama said he would price coal-generated electricity out of the market. For me, that means a future in which I&#039;m huddling around a dim compact fluorescent light bulb freezing my butt off in the Iowa winter, because I can&#039;t afford the power bill.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t mind carrots too much. I hate sticks. Obama said he would price coal-generated electricity out of the market. For me, that means a future in which I&#8217;m huddling around a dim compact fluorescent light bulb freezing my butt off in the Iowa winter, because I can&#8217;t afford the power bill.</p>
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		<title>By: baserunr</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/21/cafe-part-two/#comment-15147</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[baserunr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 20:28:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3787#comment-15147</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It cannot be a foregone conclusion that increasing CAFE standards will result in lower consumption of oil.  By raising the CAFE standard to 35mpg, you&#039;re telling me that the cost of fuel for me driving will be cut roughly in half for the same number of miles, if my vehicle were currently getting 17 mpg. As people value freedom and mobility, they are just as likely to drive twice as far as before (or nearly so) if the same percentage of their income is now being spent on fuel. A fuel tax would be the answer if you desired to reduce the consumption of oil.  Increasing the CAFE standard involves other trade-offs that many may find unpalatable.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It cannot be a foregone conclusion that increasing CAFE standards will result in lower consumption of oil.  By raising the CAFE standard to 35mpg, you&#8217;re telling me that the cost of fuel for me driving will be cut roughly in half for the same number of miles, if my vehicle were currently getting 17 mpg. As people value freedom and mobility, they are just as likely to drive twice as far as before (or nearly so) if the same percentage of their income is now being spent on fuel. A fuel tax would be the answer if you desired to reduce the consumption of oil.  Increasing the CAFE standard involves other trade-offs that many may find unpalatable.</p>
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		<title>By: eric</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/21/cafe-part-two/#comment-15131</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[eric]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 17:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3787#comment-15131</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There are too many unknowns in the climate models to make any sort of prediction on what a given CO2 level will mean for global temperature 100 years down the road. Maybe even unknown unknowns, but the known unknowns are sufficient. 

That is why global temperatures for the past ten years have not followed model predictions. Even over the past 100 years, climate model predictions do not match actual temperatures with a precision approaching the standard statistical significance. 

We are trying to craft policies in a sea of climatological ignorance. The uncertainties outweigh the certainties. I would say the major uncertainty that I have uncovered in my research so far is how cloud cover will respond to rising global temperature. (This assumes global temperature will continue to rise. With the sun&#039;s magnetic field, solar wind, and sunspots declining, the sputtering of our sun may have more impact on global cooling than yet realized.) 

But don&#039;t take my word for it. Check out this analysis on the Nature website:

http://www.nature.com/climate/2007/0707/full/climate.2007.22.html

And this BBC report offers a good counterpoint -- there is no consensus on the IPCC&#039;s level of ignorance:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7081331.stm]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are too many unknowns in the climate models to make any sort of prediction on what a given CO2 level will mean for global temperature 100 years down the road. Maybe even unknown unknowns, but the known unknowns are sufficient. </p>
<p>That is why global temperatures for the past ten years have not followed model predictions. Even over the past 100 years, climate model predictions do not match actual temperatures with a precision approaching the standard statistical significance. </p>
<p>We are trying to craft policies in a sea of climatological ignorance. The uncertainties outweigh the certainties. I would say the major uncertainty that I have uncovered in my research so far is how cloud cover will respond to rising global temperature. (This assumes global temperature will continue to rise. With the sun&#8217;s magnetic field, solar wind, and sunspots declining, the sputtering of our sun may have more impact on global cooling than yet realized.) </p>
<p>But don&#8217;t take my word for it. Check out this analysis on the Nature website:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nature.com/climate/2007/0707/full/climate.2007.22.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nature.com/climate/2007/0707/full/climate.2007.22.html</a></p>
<p>And this BBC report offers a good counterpoint &#8212; there is no consensus on the IPCC&#8217;s level of ignorance:</p>
<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7081331.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7081331.stm</a></p>
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		<title>By: someone</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/21/cafe-part-two/#comment-15117</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[someone]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 16:31:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3787#comment-15117</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[wow you really live up  to that douche name]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wow you really live up  to that douche name</p>
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		<title>By: lilnev</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/21/cafe-part-two/#comment-15111</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lilnev]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 15:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3787#comment-15111</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If CAFE does reduce the price of oil, that will reduce investment and R&amp;D into unconventional sources (tar sands, oil shale).  These are not only more expensive to extract, but considerably more carbon-intensive.  Instead, innovation will be focused on making lighter, more efficient cars that still meet consumers desires for performance, capacity, comfort, etc.  That will make the transition to electric power plants much easier as well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If CAFE does reduce the price of oil, that will reduce investment and R&amp;D into unconventional sources (tar sands, oil shale).  These are not only more expensive to extract, but considerably more carbon-intensive.  Instead, innovation will be focused on making lighter, more efficient cars that still meet consumers desires for performance, capacity, comfort, etc.  That will make the transition to electric power plants much easier as well.</p>
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		<title>By: lilnev</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/21/cafe-part-two/#comment-15110</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lilnev]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 15:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3787#comment-15110</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I find it odd that emissions forecasts never consider resource availability.  The way I see it, we&#039;re going to burn all of the conventional oil and natural gas -- it&#039;s just too good of a fuel source not to.  But oil production is peaking and will soon begin to decline (perhaps plateau for a while, if higher prices drive more investment in the extractive industries).  There simply isn&#039;t enough conventional oil for the &quot;Business As Usual&quot; growth scenarios of most emissions models.

The big questions are, what do we do with the unconventionals (tar sands, oil shale) and the coal?  If the answer is &quot;burn them&quot;, then we&#039;re going to change the climate rather significantly.  A better answer is, &quot;leave them in the ground, and find new ways to generate electricity and power our transportation&quot;.

Within that framework, I see higher CAFE standards as a good thing.  They will drive innovation towards lighter, more efficient vehicles that can run on fewer BTUs, and thus are ready to replace their ICEs with modest-sized electric motors when the time comes.  Meanwhile, oil prices will be kept somewhat lower, reducing the incentive to innovate &quot;better&quot; ways to turn unconventionals and coal into liquid transportation fuel.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it odd that emissions forecasts never consider resource availability.  The way I see it, we&#8217;re going to burn all of the conventional oil and natural gas &#8212; it&#8217;s just too good of a fuel source not to.  But oil production is peaking and will soon begin to decline (perhaps plateau for a while, if higher prices drive more investment in the extractive industries).  There simply isn&#8217;t enough conventional oil for the &#8220;Business As Usual&#8221; growth scenarios of most emissions models.</p>
<p>The big questions are, what do we do with the unconventionals (tar sands, oil shale) and the coal?  If the answer is &#8220;burn them&#8221;, then we&#8217;re going to change the climate rather significantly.  A better answer is, &#8220;leave them in the ground, and find new ways to generate electricity and power our transportation&#8221;.</p>
<p>Within that framework, I see higher CAFE standards as a good thing.  They will drive innovation towards lighter, more efficient vehicles that can run on fewer BTUs, and thus are ready to replace their ICEs with modest-sized electric motors when the time comes.  Meanwhile, oil prices will be kept somewhat lower, reducing the incentive to innovate &#8220;better&#8221; ways to turn unconventionals and coal into liquid transportation fuel.</p>
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		<title>By: m</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/21/cafe-part-two/#comment-15105</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[m]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 15:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3787#comment-15105</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[wrong, but it matters little to anonymous]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wrong, but it matters little to anonymous</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/21/cafe-part-two/#comment-15103</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 15:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3787#comment-15103</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Unfortunately, they were the same &quot;nuts on the fringe&quot; that now push the warming fear.  Being mainstream doesn&#039;t make it science.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, they were the same &#8220;nuts on the fringe&#8221; that now push the warming fear.  Being mainstream doesn&#8217;t make it science.</p>
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		<title>By: Earl Killian</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/21/cafe-part-two/#comment-15102</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Earl Killian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 14:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3787#comment-15102</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ron, you&#039;ve repeated several of the standard denier arguments. You will find out why these arguments are wrong at the catalog of denier arguments:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
See #25, #7, #18, and #1.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron, you&#8217;ve repeated several of the standard denier arguments. You will find out why these arguments are wrong at the catalog of denier arguments:<br />
<a href="http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php</a><br />
See #25, #7, #18, and #1.</p>
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		<title>By: Earl Killian</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/21/cafe-part-two/#comment-15101</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Earl Killian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 14:46:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3787#comment-15101</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Externalities distort market prices and cause markets to do the wrong thing. There is probably no larger externality than failure to price the effects of greenhouse pollution and global warming. Correcting this market failure is important to making economics work for us.

I doubt the effect of my suggestion would be to deny US consumers anything. Exporters to the US would come on board rather than lose their most lucrative market. That is after all the purpose of the proposal.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Externalities distort market prices and cause markets to do the wrong thing. There is probably no larger externality than failure to price the effects of greenhouse pollution and global warming. Correcting this market failure is important to making economics work for us.</p>
<p>I doubt the effect of my suggestion would be to deny US consumers anything. Exporters to the US would come on board rather than lose their most lucrative market. That is after all the purpose of the proposal.</p>
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		<title>By: c smith</title>
		<link>http://baselinescenario.com/2009/05/21/cafe-part-two/#comment-15097</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[c smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 14:07:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://baselinescenario.com/?p=3787#comment-15097</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow, so you are going to deny the entire U.S. consuming populace the ability to buy what they want at market prices, as well as denying a huge swath of the existing coal biz its very existence. Not to mention preventing a billion Chinese from becoming wealthier via any route other than the one you deem &quot;clean&quot;! Seems like quite a days work.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, so you are going to deny the entire U.S. consuming populace the ability to buy what they want at market prices, as well as denying a huge swath of the existing coal biz its very existence. Not to mention preventing a billion Chinese from becoming wealthier via any route other than the one you deem &#8220;clean&#8221;! Seems like quite a days work.</p>
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